Author Topic: The RONDO bashing has got to stop  (Read 4967 times)

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2013, 10:32:04 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2013, 10:33:34 AM »

Offline Moranis

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People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down?
because his dribble pounding for 20 seconds was essentially the offense of the team the last few seasons.  If Boston had better ball movement and passing, they wouldn't try so hard to shut him down because doing so wouldn't cause the offense to disappear.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2013, 10:37:25 AM »

Offline Levis107

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Are we people too short sighted that Rondo is an integral part of this team? Even doc, danny, PP and KG have stipulated this in interviews?

We only can see that:

1. He is moody (although if you look at it Bird, russel hell even KG are moody);
2. He is a ball-hog (Doc's system dictated that he get the ball almost all of the time - doc is a stubborn goat who likes to executes plays which are at times stale already);

But look at rondo as a player, I am not a Rondo apologist - i sometimes am also frustrated by the way Rondo and the Celtics play - but I believe that we need him, and the team needs him.

the kid has heart and once he gets back he'll even be a stud for the celtics. Mark my words, If we traded him and he excels with the other team (think Tony Allen) Some people here will say "Man I wish we still had Rondo";

What are Doc, Danny, Pierce and KG supposed to say? They're not going to bash their own teammate.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2013, 10:39:48 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down?
because his dribble pounding for 20 seconds was essentially the offense of the team the last few seasons.  If Boston had better ball movement and passing, they wouldn't try so hard to shut him down because doing so wouldn't cause the offense to disappear.

that's such an over-exaggeration I don't even know where to start.

We have a different kind of offense than we did before, it's working well for now, but teams will eventually adjust their defense to it. I hope I'm wrong, the next road trip will be very telling...

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2013, 10:48:06 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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We have a different kind of offense than we did before, it's working well for now, but teams will eventually adjust their defense to it. I hope I'm wrong, the next road trip will be very telling...
Yeah it will.

Terry is getting some more shots and is making them at a similar rate he has all season (which is a good rate but not spectacular)

Green is getting a more minutes at PF with out Sullinger and due to whom we're playing at times. He's making the most of it.

Pierce most of all has bounced back, he was killing us on both ends during the losing streak. Just a lot of poor shooting nights and slow defense. (Hawks basically had Pierce's man shoot a 3 during their comeback)

Will the team be able survive if Pierce has another stretch where he doesn't have any lift and can't hit shot? Lee's shot worse this stretch, is that just a normal slump or is he getting worse shots overall. Barbosa is still a roller coster as well. Most of all does our defense stay at an elite level, because that's where it has to be and wasn't early in the season.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2013, 10:55:39 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P
you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?
Shut him down? I haven't seen teams try to shut him down -- I've seen teams trying to shut everyone else down and daring Rondo to beat them by putting a guy on him that can help off.

Also, the reference to the 2010 seasons was intended to show that the playoffs are only likely to give ammunition to people who are (even now) willing to argue that the absence of Rajon Rondo is the only thing that stopped us from going deep.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 11:12:58 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P
you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?
Shut him down? I haven't seen teams try to shut him down -- I've seen teams trying to shut everyone else down and daring Rondo to beat them by putting a guy on him that can help off.

Also, the reference to the 2010 seasons was intended to show that the playoffs are only likely to give ammunition to people who are (even now) willing to argue that the absence of Rajon Rondo is the only thing that stopped us from going deep.

Yes they try to shut him down. Why do you think they put lebron and kobe on him? They needed to stop him from breaking their d down. He's always been a force in the playoffs and has engineered some great wins.

He has his weaknesses no doubt, but I don't understand how people forget what he has done in the past.

I don't recall one single member of this board saying that we had a better chance to beat the Heat after Wade took him out.


Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 11:19:34 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yes they try to shut him down. Why do you think they put lebron and kobe on him? They needed to stop him from breaking their d down. He's always been a force in the playoffs and has engineered some great wins.
Um, yeah, I almost believed that until I actually remembered I watched the games.

They put Kobe and Lebron on Rondo so that they can play 5 feet off of him and help out on Garnett and Pierce. Coincidentally, both Kobe and especially Lebron are fantastic help defenders.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2013, 11:20:22 AM »

Offline RAcker

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I don't think that most people are simply intending to bash, rather I think most are pointing out things that are now glaringly obvious about Rondo's game.  I love the guy, but the criticisms are legit.

Take Rondo's roll from 2008-2010 and compare to now.  The more he has dominated the ball (and thus ball movement has stopped) the more the team has struggled to score. I don't think that is a slap on Rondo as much as it is an obvious thing that Danny and Doc will have to discuss going forward with the team they have constructed.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2013, 11:28:04 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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why put cart before horse, about what all a selfish playing Rondo might accomplish ...I F....the Celtics were to make the playoffs.


who cares about playoff, thats just an excuse to hid the fact Rondo was killingbthis teams mojo.if a Celtics led team falls apart in the regular season , has no confidence, and struggling to even beat the worst teams in the league with Rondo pounding the ball endlessly and putting off his teammates .......causing them to play bad.


but...but...but....whine....wine ......this isn't the play offs, and I' m happy to see the Celtic' s playing  inspired team ball.



if the Celtics are better without Rondo,  so be it......be happy....


maybe Rondo can learn not to coast, learn to shoot , play defense the whole game,  lose his big head, .......maybe  then we should keep him.......

otherwise......trade him soon as he is Heathy

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2013, 12:26:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2013, 12:32:19 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.
In 09 the C's lost to an inferior magic team.  The next year we dominated them with KG.  It's high comedy to think that we were in any way shape or form better without KG.

In this case, we just need to see what happens over the 38 games without rondo.  Let's not overreact one way or the other.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2013, 12:40:02 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I'm guessing the Rondo bashing will stop around the same time the Rondacolytes cease chasing people across threads that say anything that could possily be construed as Rondo criticism. 


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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2013, 12:41:29 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.
I thought so. There are multiple reasons, and neither of them is Rondo pounding the ball. Marvelous.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2013, 01:18:24 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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Im guessing the bashing will stop when we trade Rondo for a legit Center at the deadline and make it to the finals this year.  :P

 

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