Author Topic: The RONDO bashing has got to stop  (Read 4613 times)

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 03:02:45 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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It's not so much "bashing" as it is a necessary correction to the Rondo market.  Things had gotten out of hand here.  Too many crazy claims that he was the "best point guard in the league", too many people calling him the MVP of the team and a "superstar"...  and too many delusional folks arguing he was better than Chris Paul. 

These past 7 games have been enlightening.  Rondo's still a great player... he's just not a franchise player.  I still love him.  Enjoying the heck out of the way this team is playing without him, though.

Eh, there was a goodly amount of outright bashing. There still is. You're right though, anointing Rondo above CP3 was an annoying sentiment, but it has historically been tempered with as many people decrying it.

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 03:05:18 AM »

Offline jdz101

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 03:05:52 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 03:11:35 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 03:14:18 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

Id argue there is still a pretty small sample size here. Too small, in fact, to make a claim as bold (at least for me).

The point of bringing up KG is to show that a team can rally around a fallen leader. I don't think that's anything but apropos here.

And you speak of superstar performances, but Paul Pierce's triple double tonight in a triple overtime game seems like it ought to qualify, no? And the win streak is riddled with near losses, comeback wins against inferior teams, etc.

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2013, 03:50:17 AM »

Offline JR99

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The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2013, 04:08:26 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Guess it stops when this 8-0 run gets back to 500.  May be he was part of the problem. Sure looks it.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2013, 04:48:29 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

MONEY!

The team needed a jump start, it just sad that it had to be on Rondo's expense. But we still are not better without him.

Call Rondo a ball hog if you please, but most of his plays ends up him passing the ball to an open man. He doesnt overshoots and miss a lot, he finds open guys and the guys are shooting HORRENDOUS during the losing stretch.

Is it Rondo's fault when he finds Lee, Green and Jet wide open and can't make them? How many times was he able to find them wide open and couldn't hit. Is it his fault when he finds Bass open on a pick and pop and was not able to make the shot? Is it his fault that the team showed no effort in stretches of that 6 game losing streak? Is it he to blame when Paul had a very bad shooting slump? Yes he pounds the ball, but he ends up sucking the defense and finding open guys most of the time. The team is shooting well right now, comapre to the losing streak.

You can make the case that the team is better w/o Rondo, I can sure as heck make the case that if the guys we're hitting their WIDE OPEN shots when Rondo finds them, we'd probably 4th in the East right now.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 05:49:22 AM »

Offline Rtpas11

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Not at all... his shooting hasn't been good also. Maybe after All-Star Break he'll turn the corner or end up traded.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 06:05:41 AM »

Offline cltc5

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When people stop saying that this team is done come playoffs, or we need playoffs rondo, then I think the Rondo bashing will stop.  Kinda hard to ignore the obvious.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2013, 06:12:29 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

THIS, plus I didn't think we would beat the heat even with rondo. I do think the celtics will miss rondo in the playoffs but I'm starting to question if i could possibly be wrong on that. I'm still extremely curious to see how this team performs in the playoffs without him.

If we look just as good or better then what? Again, KG is so much more important to this team *Now and 2009* than rondo is I just find comparing them a joke. Rondo was more important to last years team than this years team. Not every team benefits from having one guy *even as great as rondo* dominate the ball and this team clearly doesn't.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 06:17:14 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Because statistically on the defensive end of the floor, having KG on (versus off) the floor is the difference between us being a top 5 defense, and us being a bottom 10 defense.

Our offence doesn't really get any better or worse overall when Rondo is on the court compared to when he is off the court, statistically.  On the other hand our defense is actually worse, statistically, when he is on the court.

This team is one that wins games with defense, but we are capable of scoring.  If we have a bad shooting night we can sometimes still overcome that with suffocating defense, but if we have a bad defensive night we are toast.

Also offensively Paul Pierce, statistically, is more valuable to us than Rondo.  When Pierce is not on the court our offense drops just as badly as our defense drops when KG sits. Pierce draws so much attention from the defense that it makes it easier for teammates to get open, and when he is running the plays teams cannot defend him assuming he will pass (as they do with Rondo) because Pierce to this day is still probably a top 10 offensive player in the NBA.

So if KG is our most valuable defensive player, and Pierce is our most valuable offensive player...where does that leave Rondo?

Rondo is an elite talent but basketball isn't all about talent, otherwise Darko Milicic would have been a superstar on a max contract.  Basketball is about what you do (not just what you CAN do). 

I hope Rondo see's the way we are playing now, and uses that as inspiration to change his offensive style so that it's more accomodating to the other guys on the team.  I also hope that Doc see's how capable our supporting cast is and reduces Rondo's minutes (to say 32-35 per game) so that he's not constnatly exausted and might actually have the energy left to play some defense.

This will make me happy :)

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2013, 06:26:37 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

Id argue there is still a pretty small sample size here. Too small, in fact, to make a claim as bold (at least for me).

The point of bringing up KG is to show that a team can rally around a fallen leader. I don't think that's anything but apropos here.

And you speak of superstar performances, but Paul Pierce's triple double tonight in a triple overtime game seems like it ought to qualify, no? And the win streak is riddled with near losses, comeback wins against inferior teams, etc.

Yes, but as the great Vin Diesel once said - "it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning". 

See, to me those close games are in a way even more impressive than the blowouts, because it's in those games that your resolve is tested.  When you are playing a bad team and they are kicking your butt, to you get embarassed and give up?  Do you get overly cocky and let down you guard?

Earlier in the season we were frequently finding ourselves in those same scenarios, but insteading of coming back and wining to close out the games we were giving them away.

Much as I do like Rondo as a fan, there were a lot of times where he REALLY frustrated me jacking up contested three point shots 10 seconds into the shot clock at the end of games, and unsurprisingly bricking a lot of them. 

Rondo is much like Josh Smith - both supremely talented players with questionable attitudes and decision making at critical times.  Very few players can stuff a stat sheet better then Rondo and Josh Smith, and yet very few can leave me frustrated the way they do sometimes.

See, I can live with Rondo taking a three at the end of a game, as long as it's the best (or only) shot available, he's wide open, and the shotclock is winding down.  Rondo should not, under ANY circumstances, shoot from behind the three point line when he has a defender all over him 10 second into the shot clock.  It's not his range.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2013, 06:28:36 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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The rondo bashing should probably be doc rivers bashing tho.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2013, 06:37:32 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I am with Tommy, who has forgot more about Basketball than most people here will ever know, Rondo is a Hall of Famer.   Rondo is a real talent and this bashing is nonsense.  We will see how much guts this team has tonight with a back to back after those OTs.


Quote
basketball isn't all about talent, otherwise Darko Milicic

You lost all credibility on that one, don't cofuse size with talent.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:04:47 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2013, 07:00:39 AM »

Online BballTim

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Like the last poster said. People are not bashing Rondo. There calling it like it is, like it was, like some of the more insightful people were saying before Rondo went down.

 Hes a great tallent but his dominance of the ball and selfish attitude that he had to be the one to make the pass was not conductive to our offense and allowed other teams to better prepare for us defensivly.

  There's been plenty of posts about why the offense has been better without Rondo. The fact of the matter is that, for all the analysis of what was wrong with the Rondo-led offense and why it's superior now, we're no better offensively than we were when Rondo went down. Guys are working harder on getting out in transition and trying to get more easy buckets but overall we've seen no improvement, it's just selective viewing by people who read how much better the offense is online and then watch the games.

  If you look at just this season, our offense was significantly better when Rondo was on his assist streak (and obviously dominating the ball) than we are without him. If you look at past seasons, our offense has also been generally better when Rondo's healthy and running the offense. This wasn't the first time the team's offense has gone into a funk, but that's really all it was.
 

 

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