Author Topic: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument  (Read 4027 times)

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Offline BballTim

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2013, 09:45:17 AM »

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2013, 09:46:43 AM »

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?

Team ball and having great players are not mutually exclusive.
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Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2013, 09:56:21 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.

because pierce and kg were stacking up the championships before having each other and Rondo as their point? Actually they were on perennial losers not even making the playoffs

Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:06:17 AM by scaryjerry »

Offline BballTim

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2013, 09:59:54 AM »

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?

Team ball and having great players are not mutually exclusive.

  Nobody said they were, but if great spacing never wins over great players then how accurate is "a spaced floor wins"?

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2013, 10:16:56 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.

Offline hpantazo

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2013, 11:06:39 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.

I can't believe people still think Jordan, Duncan and Kobe won titles by themselves. They had great players around them, so did Jordan. Ginobili, Gasol, Pippen, and Parker are so underrated. Also, how can people forget Shaq? Shaq!?!?!

Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2013, 11:09:04 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.


Duncan I disagree completely on...Robinson would've been the career loser without him..Duncan made ginobli and Parker and they weren't all that great when they won

Kobe, you have a point.

Lebron you do not..he dragged a crappy team deep in the playoffs every year.

Also cut the excuses for kg...in his prime as a face of his franchise he couldn't drag his team anywhere, and couldn't get them even to the playoffs for several years before coming to Boston.....he often had the teammates he had because of his bloated contract.

Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2013, 11:10:21 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.

I can't believe people still think Jordan, Duncan and Kobe won titles by themselves. They had great players around them, so did Jordan. Ginobili, Gasol, Pippen, and Parker are so underrated. Also, how can people forget Shaq? Shaq!?!?!


No one said they won titles alone?


Let me know when kg was the only player on a teams roster, thanks


He had little help because of his own contract
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:16:21 AM by scaryjerry »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2013, 11:49:26 AM »
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.


Duncan I disagree completely on...Robinson would've been the career loser without him..Duncan made ginobli and Parker and they weren't all that great when they won

Highly inaccurate. Parker was huge, and Ginobili has been great for them, underrated player because of Pop keeping his minutes down, and him coming off the bench, particularly when they had Bowen as a incredible wing defender.

Quote
Kobe, you have a point.

Lebron you do not..he dragged a crappy team deep in the playoffs every year.

By your definition of career loser, LeBron is a career loser... and the East was weak overall, let's not kid ourselves.

Quote
Also cut the excuses for kg...in his prime as a face of his franchise he couldn't drag his team anywhere, and couldn't get them even to the playoffs for several years before coming to Boston.....he often had the teammates he had because of his bloated contract.

All of the above is irrelevant, and has zero bearing on his capability to play the game, and win games.

Or should we forget the mess McHale was as a GM, particularly costing their team drafting opportunities, and drafts are the key to get talented players at low cost to balance the team's payroll.

Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2013, 12:49:09 PM »
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

My explanation of career loser was 12 years in the league and once out of the first round as a perennial all star and "franchise player" let me know when Lebron did that
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 12:54:12 PM by scaryjerry »

Offline hpantazo

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2013, 12:55:55 PM »
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

You still have not made a valid argument as to why some players are "winners" and others "career losers" in your book.

KG was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs in Minny. Not a single player that came anywhere near the talent of a Ginoboli or Parker. Heck, not even near a Sean Elliot!

Spreewell, Olowakandi, and Wally Sczerbiak were awful.

Lebron had significantly better teams on the Cavs than KG ever had in Minny, and Lebron still could't win a ring even when the league was weak.

Offline LilRip

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2013, 01:02:44 PM »
But no winning streak before the all-star break has ever meant anything significant. We are, as we have ever been; waiting to see if the team can really keep up this style of play.

This.

I don't think this current winning streak should be the biggest and clearest indication whether to trade Rondo or not. trading an allstar-level player would need a deeper reason than a nice 6-game win streak in Feb.

Now, I'm all for trading Rondo, but only if we get something of high value in return like a legit big man who can impact games both on offense and defense. I think the flaw is that when people hear "we should trade Rondo", they treat it as if he's gonna be some salary dump and we'll get some bums like Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison in return simply because "the team is playing so well without him".
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Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2013, 01:37:16 PM »
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

You still have not made a valid argument as to why some players are "winners" and others "career losers" in your book.

KG was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs in Minny. Not a single player that came anywhere near the talent of a Ginoboli or Parker. Heck, not even near a Sean Elliot!

Spreewell, Olowakandi, and Wally Sczerbiak were awful.

Lebron had significantly better teams on the Cavs than KG ever had in Minny, and Lebron still could't win a ring even when the league was weak.

Yes. Correctamundo
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Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2013, 02:31:44 PM »
But no winning streak before the all-star break has ever meant anything significant. We are, as we have ever been; waiting to see if the team can really keep up this style of play.

This.

I don't think this current winning streak should be the biggest and clearest indication whether to trade Rondo or not. trading an allstar-level player would need a deeper reason than a nice 6-game win streak in Feb.

Now, I'm all for trading Rondo, but only if we get something of high value in return like a legit big man who can impact games both on offense and defense. I think the flaw is that when people hear "we should trade Rondo", they treat it as if he's gonna be some salary dump and we'll get some bums like Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison in return simply because "the team is playing so well without him".

I disagree regarding the win streak.  Its not Like we have just scraped through 1 point victories against garbage teams.  Many of the wins have been big ones (e.g. the 20+ blowout of the streaking Lakers) and a number of them were against playoff contenders. I think our defense improved significantly when AB returned, and I think it improved significantly again when Rondo stopped playing.  I think that defense has been the thing winning us games over this stretch, and that's why I think losing To do has helped us.  Our offensive numbers aren't really any worse, so of you do the math...

I agree though that we shouldnt trade Rondo just for the sake of a trade. If we can get a long term solution to a problem, then I wpuldnt hessitate.  For exampldesperately need a bigtine scorer to take over when Pierce retires - if we could get Eric Gordan (who I feel has the potential to one day be a 25 PPG scorer)for Rondo then I'd definately consider it in order to fill that need.

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2013, 02:33:46 PM »
If a win streak before the all-star break doesn't matter, why should a lose streak matter? You guys were all going nuts during the 6-game lose streak... does it not matter? Something's not symmetrical here.

It obviously matters. We beat the Clippers without Paul (low playoff seed), the Heat (contender), streaking Lakers (low playoff seed), the Raptors (fresh off brand new Gay and with confidence), Magic (a bad team that we usually lose against) and Kings (see above)
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