Author Topic: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime  (Read 4782 times)

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Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2013, 03:50:03 PM »

Offline get_banners

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I think Rondo became a crutch for the team...him not being there forces them to move the ball more to get open shots. Granted, Rondo has something to do with his play as well (the pounding-it-into-the-ground approach and not always pushing the pace), but I think this injury forced the team to realize they had to all be more involved in the passing game. Rondo is also all about winning and is arguably the smartest player in the game (Doc and KG are pretty good references on this), so I'm sure he's taking notes right now and will alter his play when he comes back. Its too simplistic to say its Rondo or Doc's fault, or the team's fault for the earlier play. Everyone had a role in it. The media in general isn't fond of Rondo, so many of them are making him the scapegoat.

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »

Offline BballTim

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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.

  I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.

I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.

And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.

  I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.


Quote
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.

  Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.

I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.

  I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2013, 06:23:01 PM »

Offline timobusa

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Is the bulls better without Rose? they're like number 4 or 5 seed right now, does that mean they are better without Rose? NO!

Same with this team, basically.


Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2013, 06:55:14 PM »

Offline wiley

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see next post

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2013, 06:56:42 PM »

Offline wiley

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  Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.

  Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?

I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.

What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.

And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.

Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.

What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much?  if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.

What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.

How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?

These are real questions I am posing to the board.

Nothing different.  He'd still be the PG, the team's best distributor and league's best passer.  The question to ask is how much easier things might be and how much more quickly the Celts might demoralize opposing defenses. 

It's very similar to the situation with Paul Pierce.  Sometimes he scores the hard way and sometimes he scores the easy way.  Most of us like it better when he scores easy, which in Tommy-speak means he gave up the ball, got it back and made his move to the hoop, instead of the epic isolation play, for example.

If you want to think of it that way, the Rondo "holding and pounding" the ball (very expected behavior of most star PG's) can be looked at as akin to the Pierce iso (though the Pierce iso is by definition more stagnant in terms of players moving off the ball than any PG holding that occurs), just that with Pierce the end result is a shot and with Rondo it's a pass. 

The Celtics were playing default playoff-style basketball on offense long before the playoffs, necessary against great playoff defense (Chicago, Miami) that always results in holding, pounding and isolation offense, certainly as the game tightens and teams get tired.  Probably they were doing it out of habit.  The alternative would have been to rest Rondo more often, not rush him back from injuries, play the whole squad and preach ball movement despite that the game will tighten up in late May against the Heat.  Easier said than done I guess.

Final comment.  The Celtics should figure out who the purest PG of their 4 guards is, for those horrible moments that always occur in the playoffs when an opposing defense imposes its will for a stretch and it seems impossible to get the ball over half court.  Is it Barbosa?  Terry?  Who can break pressure best, because that's how we'll be attacked by Chicago and Miami.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 07:06:46 PM by wiley »

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2013, 09:09:57 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.

  I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.

I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.

And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.

  I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.


Quote
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.

  Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.

I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.

  I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.


That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?

Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.

I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:50:30 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2013, 09:39:02 PM »

Offline celticsleyte

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Rondo would drive more if people were punished more for taking shots at him but with this team there is really no protection. As a result Rondo saves that mostly for the playoffs.

Now Doc Rivers talks tough all the time but he played during his prime with a bunch of brutes on the Hawks so he really has no clue and thinks he was just a bad ass himself.

Darko? Thanks Doc!

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2013, 10:08:53 PM »

Online triboy16f

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Danny has already said indirectly if and when rondo comes back, he will have to change his game. And if he comes back and we play 500 or worse again while he is racking up triple doubles, he should get traded or our team has to get a clutch 4th quarter superstar. And getting a three point specialist like a novak. Our defense will too. sUffer though
Quote
Carmelo Anthony: "I want to win. I don't care about the money"

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2013, 10:26:59 PM »

Offline Redz

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  Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.

  Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?

I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.

What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.

And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.

Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.

What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much?  if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.

What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.

How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?

These are real questions I am posing to the board.

The beauty of the way the Celts have been moving the ball is that eventually the defense is going to be a step behind the moving ball. If Rondo was to be on the receiving of a pass just as the defense was slipping he'd get an awful lot of open space to take it to the hoop and do what he does best.  If it's not there he needs to keep the ball moving.  The Celts have been getting guys in positions of comfort for their individual shots and they've been to doing so free of ego.  Rondo's best shot is clearly not the jumper, but he can do plenty out of this offense with well timed drives.

GOCELTS

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2013, 08:05:47 AM »

Offline mctyson

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I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.

And note that Danny mentioned how Rondo would be "unstoppable" if he played more without the ball in his hands.  This is all +

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2013, 08:48:30 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2013, 08:57:51 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think it's because Melo, he came up and inspired people during his stint with us.

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2013, 09:00:23 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.

And note that Danny mentioned how Rondo would be "unstoppable" if he played more without the ball in his hands.  This is all +

whenRondo finally practices free throw shooting and can take over at the end of a game , ie CP3 then he'll be there.   Rondo has improved open stand jump shots, but he needs to do a ton more work  on his outside game.    ..... Rondo still looks scared to walk to the free throw line...... this is all about practice . and focus. 
Kidd and others have  put the work in to become better foul shooters.....this is absolutely critical .

Think how much better Rondo game would be if he could shoot 85% free throws .  Rondo lacks basic shooting for NBA to make himself the best player he can.

I think if Rondo becomes a real threat to teams to shoot and make free throw s his game will change for the better.

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 09:40:55 AM »

Offline Redz

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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)
it is important that a team share the manliness

This is why Denver will never win it all with Faried.  Too much MAN in Manimal.

GOCELTS

Re: Marc Stein's astute quote re: Rondo in this weekend's Daily Dime
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2013, 09:49:01 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)
it is important that a team share the manliness

This is why Denver will never win it all with Faried.  Too much MAN in Manimal.

We still have the league leaders in manliness with Brandon Bass and Jason Collins
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

 

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