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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Question...
« on: February 09, 2013, 12:39:41 AM »
I think it was Chuck who was saying last night, that the reason Denver is good and similar but BETTER than old run-and-gun Suns, is because they do the run-and-gunning based off of really good defense. It made me think about us (Celtics) and that we could be better b/c of KG, PP, and Jet... Chuck was saying that the one problem Denver would have in the playoffs would be a guy who could take the big shots for them and make them... he said it won't be because their style of run-and-gun wont work in the playoffs (games become more half court), because their style is predicated off of defense FIRST, unlike those Suns teams, so they could still do that in the playoffs but that the Suns couldn't because they were based off of misses and inbounds and run, NEVER b/c of defense (I could defend better than those teams who intentionally didn't defend... *cough* D'Antoni *cough*).

The question is, are we a better version of those Suns teams and even a better version of Denver (or have the potential b/c of PP, KG, and Jet)... do you think the assessment of Denver, by Chuck is right? Could it work in the playoffs based on what Chuck said (the defense first)?

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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Question...
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 01:12:58 AM »
A few points:

1) the defensive issues of those Suns teams are often overstated. Shawn Marion was a legit DPOY candidate for a lot of those years, and a lot of the other players are/were capable defenders as well. The issue thatis often conflated is pace. The Suns ran hard, and didnt let the games enter into a grind. They weren't the 08 Celtics or anything, they just weren't as bad defensively as They're often said to be.

2) Im not convinced that anyone on our team right now are as good as Marion, Nash, or Amare were then.

3) I really doubt Denver is that good either. Those Suns teams were very, very good. They just had the misfortune of playing better Spurs teams.

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Offline foulweatherfan

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Re: Question...
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 01:40:17 AM »
...why is it that every time I turn on the radio, I hear the same 5 songs, 15 times a day for 3 months?  Man...




EDIT: To the OP's point, Barkley's quote isn't very meaningful since Denver is absolutely not better than those Suns teams.  If they were, they wouldn't be in 4th.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 01:47:56 AM by fairweatherfan »

Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Question...
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2013, 01:45:53 AM »
...why is it that every time I turn on the radio, I hear the same 5 songs, 15 times a day for 3 months?  Man...




I don't know if the Bevis and Butthead version of that song was intentional, but man that's hilarious. I'm going with intentional.

The Mickey Rooney part was hilarious.

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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Re: Question...
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2013, 02:00:18 AM »
A few points:

1) the defensive issues of those Suns teams are often overstated. Shawn Marion was a legit DPOY candidate for a lot of those years, and a lot of the other players are/were capable defenders as well. The issue thatis often conflated is pace. The Suns ran hard, and didnt let the games enter into a grind. They weren't the 08 Celtics or anything, they just weren't as bad defensively as They're often said to be.

2) Im not convinced that anyone on our team right now are as good as Marion, Nash, or Amare were then.

3) I really doubt Denver is that good either. Those Suns teams were very, very good. They just had the misfortune of playing better Spurs teams.

PP and KG are both better than those guys because they not only can rack up points on any given day but they are still some of the best defenders at their position and KG is one of the great defenders period! Sure Nash and Amare could give you offense but I guarantee that even now you'd take and old KG over run-and-gun Amare everyday and probably a debate over the run-and-gun Nash over today's PP. I don't disagree about Marion's defense but you got to be kidding me if you think a team of Nash and Amare could play any meaningful defense (I thought Bosa was a good defender back then too)... our team is GREAT defensively, it's not just one or two good/great defenders. We have only 2 players on our team who were known as bad defenders b4 they came here... everyone else is either known as great defenders or really good defenders. Even the 2 known bad defenders are defending better.


Denver is good, how good is another question. I never said those Suns teams weren't good (neither did Chuck) but you cannot tell me that defense wasn't their downfall, I mean you could but I saw different, so we will have to agree to disagree or maybe I need to find footage of those teams and see if you might have a better memory than I do (lol that may be it b/c I can barely remember what I had for breakfast).

You still didn't answer the questions though.
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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Re: Question...
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 02:14:48 AM »
Don't want to quote you fairweatherfan b/c of the video part "ain't nobody got time for that!" but you can't say that Denver is worse than those Suns teams b/c of their records or position without taking into account the opponents who are different because who knows where those teams would rank today.

I'm just asking if Chuck could be right and if he is could we be a better version of both b/c of how great we play defense (we have only had 5 games of this type of play, who knows, we could get better as we gel and become more comfortable or we could get worse offensively, who knows... one thing, we were still excellent defensively, even during our losing streak), could it work in the playoffs like it never did for those Suns teams (further than the WCF)?

If Chuck is wrong (you said he is)... let's just say he is right for this question... could we be a better version of it b/c of our defense (I don't think we are as good offensively as those teams but who knows how good we could become, offensively, with time)?
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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Question...
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 02:24:23 AM »
Shak I think you and I have very different impressions of those Suns teams. I'd take pre-injury Amare and MVP Nash over today's Pierce/Garnett any day. They're simply a class above.

You want to talk about 'in their prime', that's a whole different thing.

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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Re: Question...
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2013, 02:32:26 AM »
Shak I think you and I have very different impressions of those Suns teams. I'd take pre-injury Amare and MVP Nash over today's Pierce/Garnett any day. They're simply a class above.

You want to talk about 'in their prime', that's a whole different thing.

Yea, I'd still take KG now over pre-injury Amare. Nope, I wouldn't say prime vs. prime b/c it wouldn't be a question to me.
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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Question...
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2013, 02:45:14 AM »
Shak I think you and I have very different impressions of those Suns teams. I'd take pre-injury Amare and MVP Nash over today's Pierce/Garnett any day. They're simply a class above.

You want to talk about 'in their prime', that's a whole different thing.

Yea, I'd still take KG now over pre-injury Amare. Nope, I wouldn't say prime vs. prime b/c it wouldn't be a question to me.

You should take a look at these numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=garneke01&y1=2013&p2=stoudam01&y2=2005

That's pre-injury Amare. Later, in 06 (maybe? Id have to check), Amare's skillset and rebounding got more refined. But pre-injury, Amare basically scored at will, just cuz, he wanted to.

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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Re: Question...
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2013, 03:04:30 AM »
Shak I think you and I have very different impressions of those Suns teams. I'd take pre-injury Amare and MVP Nash over today's Pierce/Garnett any day. They're simply a class above.

You want to talk about 'in their prime', that's a whole different thing.

Yea, I'd still take KG now over pre-injury Amare. Nope, I wouldn't say prime vs. prime b/c it wouldn't be a question to me.

You should take a look at these numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=garneke01&y1=2013&p2=stoudam01&y2=2005

That's pre-injury Amare. Later, in 06 (maybe? Id have to check), Amare's skillset and rebounding got more refined. But pre-injury, Amare basically scored at will, just cuz, he wanted to.

Yes, I am aware of his offense but I'd still take KG now... KG is the better defender (I always thought Amare just didn't apply himself enough on that end) and I'd take KG's attitude. Amare reminded/reminds me of Howard, game was easy for them but they don't have the heart to rip out throats! I need players who will do anything to win instead of guys who are just great players/scorers.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Offline Roy H.

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Re: Question...
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2013, 08:36:37 AM »
I don't think Chuck is necessarily correct. 

Denver's defense this year is ranked 13th in terms of points allowed per 100 possessions, at 105.2. (Off Rtg: 109.4)

Phoenix's defense in 2007 was ranked 13th in terms of points allowed per possessions, at 106.4.  (Off Rtg:  113.9)

So, Denver's and Phoenix's defense are pretty similar, while Phoenix's offense was quite a bit more efficient.

As for the prime Amare vs. 2012 KG debate, it depends upon what your team needs.  If it's a strong defensive squad that needs help scoring, then you go with Amare.  If it's a more balanced team, or one that is weak on defense, I would prefer KG.

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Offline PhoSita

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Re: Question...
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2013, 09:04:07 AM »
A few points:

1) the defensive issues of those Suns teams are often overstated. Shawn Marion was a legit DPOY candidate for a lot of those years, and a lot of the other players are/were capable defenders as well. The issue thatis often conflated is pace. The Suns ran hard, and didnt let the games enter into a grind. They weren't the 08 Celtics or anything, they just weren't as bad defensively as They're often said to be.

2) Im not convinced that anyone on our team right now are as good as Marion, Nash, or Amare were then.

3) I really doubt Denver is that good either. Those Suns teams were very, very good. They just had the misfortune of playing better Spurs teams.

Yeah, people really don't give those Suns teams enough credit (including the very competitive 2010 version) just because they didn't make it to the Finals.  I don't think there's really any comparison between the post-Melo Nuggets and those Suns teams.
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Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: Question...
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2013, 09:11:18 AM »
I just glade Denver is in the west,  whew,   ........they are crazy athletic ......all young and fast...

there are exciting to watch.....

Offline Rtpas11

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Re: Question...
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2013, 09:48:39 AM »
is 2nites game cancelled?
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