Author Topic: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?  (Read 13922 times)

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Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2013, 09:05:08 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Hypothetical championships come a whole lot cheaper than real ones.  No way to know how we'd've done with Perk, but he wasn't very good in OKC the rest of that year either.

Meanwhile Green is starting to look like what Danny must've seen in him all along.  He needs a lot more consistency but we're paying him to be a key backup now and Pierce's replacement later.  So far...not bad.

Bottom line, Ainge's trade always made sense to me on paper, though all our big man injuries made it sting in '11.  But now it's starting to make sense to me on the court too.

This.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2013, 09:23:40 AM »

Offline ssspence

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The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:33:39 AM by ssspence »

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2013, 09:24:38 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.


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Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2013, 10:06:53 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

I don't think it's as dogmatically true as you make it out to be that Jeff has been "bad" this season.  Sure, he won't blow you away statistically, and he's been somewhat inconsistent.  But he's been a LOT better since the start of January (he's actually led the team in +/-, for what it's worth).  You can't discount the "coming back from having heart surgery" factor, either.  We're past the year mark on that surgery and Jeff is finally starting to look like a relatively consistent contributor.  He regularly makes big plays that gets the team fired up, even if he's not scoring 15-20 points every night.

I'm more than satisfied with what we've gotten from Jeff Green this season.  I'd rather have him than Gerald Wallace, Demar Derozan, or Marvin Williams . . . which basically means that he's earning his paycheck.


Also, including "didn't play in 2012" in your argument for "you shouldn't trade your starting center for that" doesn't logically make any sense.  There was no way to know that he would miss a season when DA traded for him.  It couldn't possibly have entered into the equation.

Not to mention perhaps the biggest problem with your argument.  Jeff Green DID fill a need.  Since Posey left there was a huge hole at SF behind Paul Pierce; that fact was only exacerbated by the emergence of the Heat as the major Eastern Conference nemesis.  The Celtics needed a big, athletic wing to help defend LeBron and try to match the Heat's speed and athleticism.  Perk would have been about as useful against the Heat as a Panzer tank in the jungles of Vietnam.

The biggest reason to criticize Danny for the Perk trade was, still is, and always will be the fact that it meant that the team was putting all its eggs in the old, often injured Shaq / JO combination at center.  However, I think you can make a strong argument that the team wasn't going to win a championship without Shaq contributing, anyway.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:12:32 AM by PhoSita »
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.

1) Center wasn't a position with need, and we actually got a center in that trade for Perkins (a healthy center, which was a plus), so that "need" was filled. Green filled an actual position of need, back-up SF which we didn't have.

2) Green wasn't bad in 2011. He didn't play in 2012 due to health reasons, which netted us a second round pick as compensation which was used to trade for Courtney Lee. That said, we acquired Peaches, Sasha, and Daniels to fill in for Green behind Pierce to make due in 2012, and I'm more than fine with that group while Green came back this year.

And he's not been bad in 2013, that's just completely inaccurate.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:31:30 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2013, 10:20:13 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.

The only team spirit that was hurt was Rondo's, no one else on that team that I recall let the trade affect their play.

Shaq indeed was hurt as Roy mentions, and I think it was a case of an injury that should've healed quicker just didn't. In fact, didn't he return after that injury, just to get a more severe injury later on? I don't recall that well.

But all that said, we got a rotation center in that Perk trade. A center who actually played well for us, but got he got hurt too.

Oh well, crap happens.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2013, 10:29:19 AM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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edit - no personal attacks.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:52:08 AM by wdleehi »
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2013, 11:18:52 AM »

Offline tonyto3690

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So here's the arguments I'm seeing for both sides

Pro trade:
-We got great value
-We had plenty of depth at center
-Perkins was going to walk
-We weren't going to win championship with Perkins
-Green filled a very large need
-Green has star potential
-Green can be the heir apparent to Pierce
-Green is younger than Perkins and will likely have a career for another 10 years vs Perkins 3 year (being generous) career life span


Against trade:
-We should have overpaid for an old center with destroyed knees so we could have an old slow overpaid center now.
-The loss of Perkins caused our grown men professionals to completely lose all desire to win the game they're paid millions to play.
-We should have had future knowledge of hindsight that Shaq wasn't going to be healthy in the playoffs


Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2013, 12:22:47 PM »

Offline ssspence

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The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.

1) Center wasn't a position with need, and we actually got a center in that trade for Perkins (a healthy center, which was a plus), so that "need" was filled. Green filled an actual position of need, back-up SF which we didn't have.

2) Green wasn't bad in 2011. He didn't play in 2012 due to health reasons, which netted us a second round pick as compensation which was used to trade for Courtney Lee. That said, we acquired Peaches, Sasha, and Daniels to fill in for Green behind Pierce to make due in 2012, and I'm more than fine with that group while Green came back this year.

And he's not been bad in 2013, that's just completely inaccurate.

Well he certainly hasn't been above average in any facet. So if you want to defend his value since the trade, be my guest, but I'll stand by my argument that he's been a disappointment, and combined with the fact he was at the time, and continues to be, a back-up, I didn't and don't see the deal as a high value move, and therefore certainly not one I'm ready to applaud the Celtics for when you consider the alternatives -- a run at a championship which included their championship center, and / or a trade for a player of greater impact.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2013, 12:28:29 PM »

Offline kgainez

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So here's the arguments I'm seeing for both sides

Pro trade:
-We got great value
-We had plenty of depth at center
-Perkins was going to walk
-We weren't going to win championship with Perkins
-Green filled a very large need
-Green has star potential
-Green can be the heir apparent to Pierce
-Green is younger than Perkins and will likely have a career for another 10 years vs Perkins 3 year (being generous) career life span


Against trade:
-We should have overpaid for an old center with destroyed knees so we could have an old slow overpaid center now.
-The loss of Perkins caused our grown men professionals to completely lose all desire to win the game they're paid millions to play.
-We should have had future knowledge of hindsight that Shaq wasn't going to be healthy in the playoffs

lol

also, didn't Danny draft Jeff Green? He probably had some sort of attachment and future vision of Green that absolutely no one will know about any time soon.

the Perk trade scared me initially. But seeing how we can make ppl like Steamer and Hollins look good, I say we just need to find some people who can rebound and take some hard fouls.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2013, 12:29:38 PM »

Online pearljammer10

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as much as i love Jeff Green and have been a huge supporter of his all year. Perk shouldnt have been traded that year. I still believe we win the championship with Perk that year.
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PG:Rondo/Miller/Udrih/Dinwiddle
SG:Afflalo/Williams/Delladova
SF:Green/Young
PF:Hill/Powell
C:Hibbert/Nurcik/Bynum

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2013, 12:34:54 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I asked this before in this post, but can someone confirm the following:

Didn't we get Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger (Clipper's 1st round pick) out of that trade?

If so, can we put the actual return to the Celtics by trading Kendrick Perkins as Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger?

I loved Perkins, but I don't think he guaranteed us anything as far as championships go. For all we know he could have re-injured his knee in round two fo the playoffs that year, just like Shaq got injured and Rondo got injured. Incredibly bad luck with injuries at the wrong time to key players is the main reason this team built around KG and Pierce hasn't rasied 2-3 banners instead of one and that isn't only because of Perkins  being traded.

Looking forward, I would much rather have a tandem of Green and Sullinger than I would Kendrick Perkins.

* Perkins was one of my all time favorite Celtics.

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2013, 12:39:30 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2013, 12:46:29 PM »

Offline kgainez

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Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

we don't so this entire argument is moot

the question should be, who's having a better season right now. Perk or Green?

Ok...now who wins?

smh

You all have this crazy ability to overrate these players you're so mentally attached to. I understand it. I really do. But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

Why are we so pressed to have ONE person make up for that?

Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2013, 12:47:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

Reports at the time were that the team was "livid" and devastated by the deal.  The true extent of Shaq's injury -- that he'd be out for the season -- wasn't discovered until much later.  Indeed, the team still had Shaq trying to comeback in the playoffs, although he wasn't healthy enough to do so.


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