Author Topic: Sad thing (Rondo Related)  (Read 2514 times)

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Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2013, 12:03:26 PM »

Online saltlover

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I don't know who's fault it was, so I'll go with the "it's a team game, so it was everyone's fault" line of thinking.

I can't tell you how many times I saw Rondo bring it up the court, pass it to KG or Pierce, who might dribble it once or twice and pass it back to Rondo.  Who's fault was that?  Pierce's?  Rondo's?  Doc's?  The rest of the guys on the court for standing idle?  Bass turned down a lot of open jumpers in the first part of the season -- Rondo would get him an open shot, Bass would instead dribble, no longer be open, and Rondo would run around to get the ball back and try to save the possession.  The whole team was out of sync.  Jeff Green I'm willing to cut some slack to because of the whole heart-surgery-less-than-a-year-ago thing.

I love Paul Pierce, but he had the opportunity to be more of a facilitator even while Rondo was on the court, but he passed that up.  Again, I don't know who's fault that was, but part of the reason Rondo held the ball so danged much was that everyone said "Here Rondo, take the ball."

The Celtics have looked better without Rondo, but correlation does not necessarily mean causation.  The Celtics have looked just fine without Sullinger also, and there were few complaints about his play.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2013, 12:04:38 PM »

Offline vinnie

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I think one of the undersold parts to this winning streak is everyone did seem to wake up and started giving more effort. I sure would of liked seeing that earlier in the season. I know I'm in the minority here, but I still think Rondo makes us a better team.

Agreed 100 percent

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2013, 12:07:39 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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I think one of the undersold parts to this winning streak is everyone did seem to wake up and started giving more effort. I sure would of liked seeing that earlier in the season. I know I'm in the minority here, but I still think Rondo makes us a better team.

I keep seeing people mentioning how we're suddenly now giving more effort, and I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that it's actually happening.

Everyone has pretty much played as hard as they've been playing for a while now.

Bass is the only one I can really point to, but that's about it.

  What would you consider to be evidence? I think that the heightened effort is clear as day, both on the defensive end and how quickly they get up court. I think there are various reasons for this: players stepping up because Rondo's injured, Rondo and Sully's injuries resulting in more (and more consistent) minutes for the remaining players, some players controlling the ball more often and just the confidence that comes from playing well.

This simply ignores how our second unit has looked, particularly since the beginning of January when Bradley returned. All of this things you're noticing can be explained by Rondo not being part of the defense (you already know my opinion on his defensive style) and the style of game we're playing without Rondo dominating the offense... something that was already being done before Rondo went down as evidenced on how the 2nd unit had been playing.

So, I don't see any of this as an effort issue.

Quote
  As to the OP, the way the team is playing now is why I was still of the opinion that we were still title contenders. Stick Rondo on a team with this depth that's playing like this in the playoffs and we'd be capable of beating anyone. It would be the equivalent of adding (roughly) Bradley, Lee, Green and Wilcox to the team that played the Heat in the ECF last year.

The thing I lament with this team, is not that they weren't playing "hard" when Rondo was around, but that they weren't incorporating this style of play when Rondo was on the floor.

Since the beginning of the season I saw 3 major culprits, Doc because it's his system basically, he's the coach, and his rotations were poor.

Rondo because first, he's been given the freedom to run the offense as he sees fit, he's the one calling the plays, and he's the one not pushing the ball even though since 2007 one of the real constants of what Doc keeps mentioning to his team is first to push the ball (not walk the ball up the floor, something Pierce likes to do too) and that he wants to see ball movement. And his defense, but you won't agree with me on this last issue anyways so not worth arguing about.

And Pierce, through much of the season his ball movement has been abysmal. His defense has lost a step, and his shot has been very inconsistent for a player who dominates the ball as much as he does too.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2013, 12:10:49 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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I find it amazing that everyone has always said that Rondo loves playing this uptempo style of basketball and he kills it in transition. Yet, he predominately quarterbacks us to play an incredibly slow half court game. Then when he is out, all we do it run and get out in transition... I dont understand it.

Because people's idealized notions of Rondo - as this blog reinforces daily - and the facts are two radically different things that you've captured nicely in this post.

TP.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2013, 12:12:21 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I find it amazing that everyone has always said that Rondo loves playing this uptempo style of basketball and he kills it in transition. Yet, he predominately quarterbacks us to play an incredibly slow half court game. Then when he is out, all we do it run and get out in transition... I dont understand it.

  People say Rondo loves playing uptempo basketball because it's true and always has been. Every time we get a defensive rebound and there's any chance at all for a transition basket Rondo's running up court calling for the ball in an effort to get the break going.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2013, 12:16:19 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Well, there is the possibility that we are actually better without rondo.  Either way, we should have a fairly good answer about that over the 38 game sample.  If it is smoke and mirrors, then will come back down to earth.  If we don't, then perhaps what we are seeing is real (and we are better).

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2013, 12:29:30 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Rondo apologists, and clueless sports analysts will try to convince you that this team is just "stepping up" or that We are just pulling together for Rondo.  But it's becoming clear, this TEAM is all around better without what Rondo has contributed.  It's sad, but the reality is, every player is now playing better and you dont have the one star doing everything or asked to.  We are playing the way basketball is supposed to be played and Im thrilled about it.  Prefaces again, I love Rondo, but if we can trade him for better parts, I'd do it in a heart beat.  sometimes truth hurts.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2013, 12:32:28 PM »

Online saltlover

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Well, there is the possibility that we are actually better without rondo.  Either way, we should have a fairly good answer about that over the 38 game sample.  If it is smoke and mirrors, then will come back down to earth.  If we don't, then perhaps what we are seeing is real (and we are better).

38 games is still a relatively small sample, considering differences in home/road competition, the tanking of bad teams at the end of the season for better draft slots, and different levels of health on the Celtics.  Certainly there are things about the way this team plays that should be incorporated when Rondo returns, but that does not mean that we are "better."

Just last season, we saw a similar sample of Rondo/AB/Pierce/Bass/KG completely dominate the competition.  That same combo this season, albeit for a dozen games, was nothing special.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2013, 12:35:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Well, there is the possibility that we are actually better without rondo.  Either way, we should have a fairly good answer about that over the 38 game sample.  If it is smoke and mirrors, then will come back down to earth.  If we don't, then perhaps what we are seeing is real (and we are better).

  The sample for whether we're better with Rondo doesn't end after those 38 games, it begins after those 38 games.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2013, 12:38:00 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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It's not just effort.   There is something psychologically freeing about playing when the chips are down.  It's the nothing left to lose mentality that drives people at all levels when the best player(s) is unable to play or when down by a large number. It's the opposite of the  let-down mentality we see all the time (except last night) when a team goes up by 30.  This team is feeding and thriving off the energy of the underdog fighting against the odds. It will difficult to sustain.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 01:05:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I think one of the undersold parts to this winning streak is everyone did seem to wake up and started giving more effort. I sure would of liked seeing that earlier in the season. I know I'm in the minority here, but I still think Rondo makes us a better team.

I keep seeing people mentioning how we're suddenly now giving more effort, and I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that it's actually happening.

Everyone has pretty much played as hard as they've been playing for a while now.

Bass is the only one I can really point to, but that's about it.

  What would you consider to be evidence? I think that the heightened effort is clear as day, both on the defensive end and how quickly they get up court. I think there are various reasons for this: players stepping up because Rondo's injured, Rondo and Sully's injuries resulting in more (and more consistent) minutes for the remaining players, some players controlling the ball more often and just the confidence that comes from playing well.

This simply ignores how our second unit has looked, particularly since the beginning of January when Bradley returned. All of this things you're noticing can be explained by Rondo not being part of the defense (you already know my opinion on his defensive style) and the style of game we're playing without Rondo dominating the offense... something that was already being done before Rondo went down as evidenced on how the 2nd unit had been playing.

So, I don't see any of this as an effort issue.

  Agree to disagree I suppose. The defense has wavered from near best in the league to mediocre since around the time Rondo got tossed from the NJ game. IMO when the team plays 3-4 good games and 3-4 bad games on defense it's a matter of focus and energy/effort.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2013, 01:08:15 PM »

Offline RyNye

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This simply ignores how our second unit has looked, particularly since the beginning of January when Bradley returned. All of this things you're noticing can be explained by Rondo not being part of the defense (you already know my opinion on his defensive style) and the style of game we're playing without Rondo dominating the offense... something that was already being done before Rondo went down as evidenced on how the 2nd unit had been playing.

So, I don't see any of this as an effort issue.

I find it very hypocritical that you are dismissing other people's arguments due to a lack of evidence, yet you state your own opinion of what is going on as if it is a fact by default without providing any evidence of your own.

What makes your opinion of how the 2nd unit has been playing any better than the opinion voiced by ScottHow or BBallTim?

This is one thing I am sick of seeing on these forums. Either provide some evidence to back up your point, or admit that what you say is just an opinion and as likely to be right or wrong as anybody else's. I'm sick of people pretending that their own interpretation of basketball is better than everyone else's, and better than the numbers, too.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 01:11:01 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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The sad thing is we should have been playing this way with Rondo.

For some reason for much of the earlier part of the season, Terry, Green, Bass, Lee all their games were asleep at the wheel.

I don't know why Rondo's injury and Sully's injury triggered the wake up call, but that's how the cards played out.

Imagine Rondo playing with all these weapons and the defensive and uptempo offense that Danny envisioned and Doc was hopeful of coaching....imagine that.

This is the most balanced, youth and veteran infused roster we have had in the KG era.

I really hope Rondo can see what has been happening and he should know in his heart that he does not need to go out and look for triple doubles for us to win...they are nice, but when everything is right, Rondo needs just play solid D and pass the ball to the open guy, shoot the open shot and lay the ball up if he is at the rim.

dude ...Sully is a huge asset.....he plays defense..........Rondo  lazy diva........belongs on the lakers with Kobe...his ball hogging twin.

Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 01:20:18 PM »

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Doc says that Rondo has one of the best basketball minds in the business.  We know Rondo has the talent and his skills have improved every year.  He is one of the top point guards in the NBA.  I am sure he will be figure out how to keep everyone involved, now that they have finally become comfortable with the team and the system.  I have said all along that the rebuilding has already begun, and this year and next year we will see the proof of that.
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Re: Sad thing (Rondo Related)
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2013, 01:23:02 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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This simply ignores how our second unit has looked, particularly since the beginning of January when Bradley returned. All of this things you're noticing can be explained by Rondo not being part of the defense (you already know my opinion on his defensive style) and the style of game we're playing without Rondo dominating the offense... something that was already being done before Rondo went down as evidenced on how the 2nd unit had been playing.

So, I don't see any of this as an effort issue.

I find it very hypocritical that you are dismissing other people's arguments due to a lack of evidence, yet you state your own opinion of what is going on as if it is a fact by default without providing any evidence of your own.

What makes your opinion of how the 2nd unit has been playing any better than the opinion voiced by ScottHow or BBallTim?

This is one thing I am sick of seeing on these forums. Either provide some evidence to back up your point, or admit that what you say is just an opinion and as likely to be right or wrong as anybody else's. I'm sick of people pretending that their own interpretation of basketball is better than everyone else's, and better than the numbers, too.

I haven't seen anyone challenging my assessment that our 2nd unit has looked quite good and consistent since January, more so from an effort standpoint. I'm not the one out to prove anything, I'm simply challenging claims made by other posters, and I'm fine with anecdotal observations, but not even that has been provided because they can't back it up.

Let me put it this way, no one has provided even in the least something that resembles a decent argument supporting our players suddenly playing with more effort than previously, and that's because particularly since January, our 2nd unit has been playing quite well together, helped by the fact of better rotations with the return of Bradley. They've been playing the same brand of basketball which is helping our current success, something that occurred while Rondo was with the team.

If you read up-thread I provided my thoughts on certain players and how they've played for us, if there's a challenge to any of those assessments, I'm more than welcome to provide more details to back them up. Until then, it's a waste of my time.

And just to be clear, I haven't dismissed anyone's arguments... no one has really made an argument to begin with as far as I've seen. They've just thrown conclusions to the middle without much thought that I can see, in part because they're having trouble comprehending what is currently occurring as far as I can tell.

So, other than accusing me of hypocrisy, do you actually have an opinion on why we're playing well lately or have any theories as to why that is?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:35:26 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

 

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