Author Topic: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player  (Read 1950 times)

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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 12:29:56 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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To clarify, this is what SVG said about Wall, which I presume applies to Rondo, as well:

Quote
"I don't think he can be your best player, certainly not clearly your best player. You need one guy better than him or a couple of guys at his talent level for them to win.

So, Van Gundy seems to believe that you can win without that franchise player.  I think a reasonable course for the Celtics would be to avoid major moves that don't bring back a player as good as Rondo until they assess how he will play post-injury to see if he can be one of a group of roughly equal players to build around as a group.

Yeah I don't think he said the guy has to be better, but he has to be on that level and one of his attributes has to be that he is a great scorer who you can count on, more likely then not, to score in crunch time.

Again there are players like this who aren't top ten guys.

Monta Ellis comes to mind. Joe Johnson was one. Heck even Jamal Crawford has played this role. Hedo and Rashard both did it well for Orlando in 2009. They don't have to be SuperStars, but rather All Star caliber players who can get you points.

As Doc would say, " A professional scorer ".

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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 12:32:12 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I agree with SVG assessment that Rondo is not a franchise player.  I disagree with his reasoning for coming to that conclusion.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 12:32:23 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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I feel real good about rondo being my second or third best player on the team. Not so much when hes the first or "Go to guy". If i had my way rondo would definitely not be high on my list on guys Id like to build my team around for many reasons.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 12:35:12 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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This is old news. Csbloggers may not agree, but NBA GMs do, which is why Ainge hasn't been able to find a good deal for him despite trying wicked haaaahhdddd.

I think it is reasonable for Ainge to expect around the same value as he would get dealing another non-franchise but All-Star caliber player like Andre Iguodala or Al Horford if he were trying to trade a healthy Rondo and to not even be tempted by a deal that falls well short of that level.
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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 12:36:03 PM »

Offline Chief

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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 12:38:33 PM »

Online BballTim

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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.

You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.

  He must also think that Magic wasn't a franchise player and that Vinnie Johnson and Andrew Toney were.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 12:38:43 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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This is the dilemma with a Rondo-centric team.  A dilemma that has been discuss ad nauseam of late.

SVG is correct.  100%.  His quote is right-on.

Now, onto a fan's quote:

Quote
I think if the Celtics can get this scorer along side Rondo...

Herein lies a problem.  In late game situations the ball needs to be in the hands of the scorer, not Rondo, and Rondo is ineffective off-the-ball.  Rondo is not a good spot-up shooter and he is a horrible 3-pt shooter.  He's also below-average at the free throw line, so he can become a liability in numerous ways in certain situations.  Instead of spacing the floor, he actually helps the defense shrink it.  What fan gets excited to see Rondo dribbling the ball at the 3-pt line as the clock winds down?  It's nauseating to watch.  Unless he drives and gets clean to the bucket, it's a wasted possession.  God forbid he gets fouled and has to hit free throws to win the game.

A franchise player cannot be someone who potentially hurts your team at end-of-game situations, such as Dwight Howard or Rondo (just to name two).  Coaches actively keep the ball out of these players' hands.  That says something.  That says they're not franchise players.

Paul Pierce's turnovers notwithstanding, he IS a franchise player.  He's not the caliber of scorer that Bryant, Jordan, or Durant are, but he's the guy with the ball in his hands when the game is on the line.  He is the guy who will win or lose you the game.  Myself and Doc Rivers are comfortable with this.

I would argue that Boston actually currently has TWO franchise players - The Truth and KG - and each of them bring something different to the table, but together they are the Celtics.  [This is partially due to their age.  When they were younger, they were each full-time franchise players!]

Rondo can be exhilarating and he will sell tickets, but if anyone ever signs him to a max contract they'll regret it.  Ainge knew this early on, which is why Rondo's current "under-market" contract is brilliant.

p.s. Oscar and Magic were franchise players.  Stockton and Malone were in the class that Pierce and KG are - they shared franchise player responsibilities.  Nash tried to be a franchise player alone (didn't work) and tried to split duties with A'mare (didn't work).  Kidd was never a franchise player; he was a solid piece.

p.p.s. I would argue that PG and C are the most unlikely positions for a franchise player.  There have been a few PGs - Oscar, Magic, Isiah, and a few Cs (of late) - Hakeem, Shaq, but overall they're positions are limited.  A shoot-first scoring PG can alienate his team during the other 47 minutes of the game and a C always needs to be given the ball in the proper position (they can rarely create their own shots).

p.p.p.s. Bill Russell played in a different era, so you cannot use him in a comparison to the modern game.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Has there even been a point guard who was a franchise guy?

I mean I wouldnt consider Stockton, Nash, or Kidd to be franchise guys and they're living legends at the pg spot.

Oscar and Magic.
beat me to it.  might even be able to add Isaiah Thomas to that short list.  Best player on those butthead Bad Boy teams in the late 80's (but he did have a pretty solid team with him to get those titles)

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 12:43:18 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.

You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 12:44:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Since when are late game half court sets more important than the rest of the game?

Awful definition of "franchise" player.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.

You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
Hedo/Jameer/Vince had the ball not Dwight.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 12:54:56 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
Irving, Durant, Rose, Antony, Paul, Lillard...  to name a few. I'm certain you can argue including Curry and Harden in this category, for example.
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Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »

Online BballTim

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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.

You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.

  There's probably about 25 teams in the league that would love to have gone through the Dwight Howard in Orlando train wreck. Regular playoff births, getting to the finals, getting to the ecf. What a nightmare for them.

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2013, 12:58:27 PM »

Offline Chief

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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
Irving, Durant, Rose, Antony, Paul, Lillard...  to name a few. I'm certain you can argue including Curry and Harden in this category, for example.

My list:

Carmelo
Rose
Irving
Harden
Hibbert
Paul
Lebron
Love
Durant
Aldridge
Cousins
Dwight Howard :-\
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: SVG: Rondo is not a Franchise Player
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2013, 12:58:55 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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Don't misunderstand my earlier comments to mean that Rondo is worthless.  Rondo can be a piece on a contending team, but he will never be the franchise guy on a contending team.  If he is a team's franchise guy, their ceiling is a 4th seed and 2nd round exit.  [Remember, I don't consider Rondo the Celtics' franchise guy now!  I believe Pierce and KG still split that duty!]

As for who is a true franchise player - guys worth max deals who will actually single-handedly make you a championship contender!:

LeBron
Durant

There aren't many.  Everyone else comes with a caveat.

Kobe - Can no longer carry a team for an entire season, but was a true franchise player for a decade (and still is, in theory - he IS the Lakers franchise).

Dirk - He's aging out of it, but he was a franchise player in his prime.

Duncan - At this age, he splits duties with Parker.  I'm not sure he was in his prime either, as he always had a Robinson or Parker/Manu with him.

Pierce/KG - They split duties, but in their youth they were both franchise players for their respective franchises.  Pierce just happened to be on some real crappy teams.

Carmelo - He may be, but he hasn't yet proven anything.  Carry the Knicks to the Finals and we'll talk.

Rose - He may be, but he hasn't yet proven anything.  Come back healthy and carry the Bulls to the Finals and we'll talk.

Howard - For the reasons I wrote earlier, Howard is not a franchise player.

Wade - Kinda sorta, but relied heavily on Shaq and LeBron to get to the Finals.  Injuries probably kept him from being a true franchise player.

Chris Paul - He's close, but he has never gotten a team over the hump, and if he does this season with the Clippers a lot of it will have to do with Griffin.  It's tough for PGs to be franchise players.

A lot of guys are paid to be franchise players, but that doesn't mean they are.  James Harden?  Carry the Rockets to the WCF and we'll talk.

That's it.  Can you truthfully think of anyone else?  And, don't freakin' say Josh Smith.  That guy deserves a max contract just a shade more than I do.

 

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