Author Topic: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.  (Read 2923 times)

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Offline Celtics18

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 01:48:40 AM »
C'mon, guys.  The OP compared Rondo to Jordan.  It can't be all bad. 
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Offline KG Living Legend

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 04:00:17 AM »

 Can someone post "Ball Hog" stats. I'd Imagine Lebron has been up there, as far as just having the ball in your possession.

 And all time. Maybe Magic, Steven Nash, Stockton, Payton, Jordan, I would love to see Time of possession stats with the greatest players ever just to see what it is.

Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 04:48:14 AM »
It's pretty crazy to me that half a season of .500 ball and a 5 game winning streak has turned so many fans against Rondo.

I will say I'm for trading him now, only because of his injury. But give me a healthy Rondo any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

It's not the record that leads people to making these comments - it's the physical act of watching the games and seeing the team's interactions on the court.

Our defense has been outstanding (top 3 on the league if I recall) and there are statistics to prove that we are a better defensive team when Rondo is not on the court.

There are also statistics that show we aren't really any better offensively when Rondo is on the court, ultimately we are about the same.

So, when you put two and two together you get similar points scores, but less points allows - that means we are outscoring our opponents by more.

Next there is the fact that the overall spread of the scoring is more even.  Courtney Lee, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa and Jeff Green are all scoring more now that Rondo isn't there, and that gives us a ballanced attack.  It's harder to defend a team with multiple scoring threats then it is to defend a team with one or two scoring threats.  If Rondo was an elite (i.e. 25 PPG) scorer on a consistent basis, then it would take scoring load off Pierce and KG and it probably wouldn't matter about the other guys...but Rondo scores about 15 PPG at his best, which means Pierce and KG still need to be the ones pulling all the load.  If you have 4 or 5 guys scoring points each time (and 35-50 points from your bench) then those vets don't need to score quite so much.

Pierce had what, 12 points today?  KG had abou 27, but then he had a quiet game a few back.

Everybody here knows Rondo is an elite talent, nobody is disputing that at all.  What we are arguing is plain and simple - does this team actually play better with Rondo than without him over a full 82 game season?

Yes he is dominant in the playoffs and in the occasional big regular season game, we all know that.  But in all those other games when we get regular Rondo instead of super-human Rondo, is his presence benefitial to us? 

Honestly I think he is an elite player, but I think his play has genuinely hurt us a little this season, made it difficult for the team to be consistent and dominant.  I don't think that's all his fault. 

I think we rely on him too much for example, and I think that hurts the other players on the team. 

I also think he uses too much energy on offense, which I think hurts his ability to play solid defense. 

I also think we play him too many minutes and should keep him down around the 32 to 35 minute mark - this would ensure that he has the energy to be 'playoff Rondo' all the time.  I think it's hard to do that if you're playing close to 40 minutes per game.

I love Rondo, but I think the way he has played this year he has held back the team, and again I don't entirely blame that on him...but I do think some of it is on him. 

Offline kgainez

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 06:30:33 AM »
It's pretty crazy to me that half a season of .500 ball and a 5 game winning streak has turned so many fans against Rondo.

I will say I'm for trading him now, only because of his injury. But give me a healthy Rondo any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

It's not the record that leads people to making these comments - it's the physical act of watching the games and seeing the team's interactions on the court.

Our defense has been outstanding (top 3 on the league if I recall) and there are statistics to prove that we are a better defensive team when Rondo is not on the court.

There are also statistics that show we aren't really any better offensively when Rondo is on the court, ultimately we are about the same.

So, when you put two and two together you get similar points scores, but less points allows - that means we are outscoring our opponents by more.

Next there is the fact that the overall spread of the scoring is more even.  Courtney Lee, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa and Jeff Green are all scoring more now that Rondo isn't there, and that gives us a ballanced attack.  It's harder to defend a team with multiple scoring threats then it is to defend a team with one or two scoring threats.  If Rondo was an elite (i.e. 25 PPG) scorer on a consistent basis, then it would take scoring load off Pierce and KG and it probably wouldn't matter about the other guys...but Rondo scores about 15 PPG at his best, which means Pierce and KG still need to be the ones pulling all the load.  If you have 4 or 5 guys scoring points each time (and 35-50 points from your bench) then those vets don't need to score quite so much.

Pierce had what, 12 points today?  KG had abou 27, but then he had a quiet game a few back.

Everybody here knows Rondo is an elite talent, nobody is disputing that at all.  What we are arguing is plain and simple - does this team actually play better with Rondo than without him over a full 82 game season?

Yes he is dominant in the playoffs and in the occasional big regular season game, we all know that.  But in all those other games when we get regular Rondo instead of super-human Rondo, is his presence benefitial to us? 

Honestly I think he is an elite player, but I think his play has genuinely hurt us a little this season, made it difficult for the team to be consistent and dominant.  I don't think that's all his fault. 

I think we rely on him too much for example, and I think that hurts the other players on the team. 

I also think he uses too much energy on offense, which I think hurts his ability to play solid defense. 

I also think we play him too many minutes and should keep him down around the 32 to 35 minute mark - this would ensure that he has the energy to be 'playoff Rondo' all the time.  I think it's hard to do that if you're playing close to 40 minutes per game.

I love Rondo, but I think the way he has played this year he has held back the team, and again I don't entirely blame that on him...but I do think some of it is on him.

TP!!!!
I agree with most of the points -- I'm not sure he's held us back. But I always remember saying that we will be inconsistent as long as Rondo is inconsistent. One game he has 20+ points, the next game he has 2. I don't think that's very good...and when you're guessing as a fan of the team, which Rondo will show, I'm almost sure everyone is guessing too.

There's no consistency and it starts with our 'leader'. Everyone has given in to Rondo being the leader. He's got to step up. I don't mind him scoring 2 points a game, as long as he's dishing the ball TO EVERYONE and keeping the tempo up. But Rondo mainly passes to KG and PP. Everyone else is just standing around. And I think that's on Doc and Rondo...they think getting everyone else involved is simply giving Jeff a dunk and then not going back to him for forever.

It's a mental thing. That's obvious and unfortunately, we have no stats for that. I tend to think THIS GROUP OF TALENT is better without the ball pounding Rondo. If Rondo can come back and adapt to this with this group, we'll be excellent.

Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 07:14:34 AM »
Now that's funny




Hey Jordan's bulls were fine the regular season after his first retirement...

Then this thing called the playoffs happened

Offline Celtics4ever

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 07:16:44 AM »
Trouble is with this theory is Jordan averaged 5 APG and Rondo 10 APG.   Does he dominate the ball, sometimes, is he a ball hog, nope.

Do you ever watch James play I think prior to MIA he was the worst ball hog in terms of pointless dribbling.   He was and is a good passer and racked up assists but he dribbled the ball ad nauseum.   The less dribbling the better unless your going to the hole, a pass moves the ball quicker.

Offline OttawaCeltic

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 07:36:13 AM »
PS. Rondo has given his heart and soul to this team, and some fans doesn't give him the respect that is due.

I'll wait till I see you "fans" post your "I wish Rondo was healthy" posts come playoff time.
TP.

It's a shame how so many fans have taken to kicking this guy when he's down, after all he's done for this organization.

Kid's a baller, and we're lucky to have him.

I'm real tired of these threads, but I fear they will continue, as long as he seems to be the best scapegoat available.
And we will keep kicking him back down, we don't want that fool running our plays anymore.
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Offline Sketch5

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 07:46:22 AM »
The Problem is Rondo is only dangerous with the ball in his hand. Half the time when there is a rebound he runs to the ball, instead of  the rebounder advancing the with a pass to the closes person up the court. He then dribbles it up and makes an assist closer to the hoop.

But some times the easier play would have been the rebounder just kicking it up the side line.

Some times he waits for a play to develop instead of creating out. This causes a stagnate offense. Which makes it easy to deafened. Its also predictable.

Some one has already said this, but we are not better with out Rondo, but we are playing a better way of Basketball. We saw last night the two versions. We got up with the new style of moving the ball, but then PP kinda became Rondo ish and had the plays run threw him which slowed things down.

Im hoping Rondo sees how well the play is when with in 3 seconds of getting over half court its on the the next man instead of dribbling for 10 seconds waiting for some one to get open.

Only problem is Rondo needs to learn to cut like AB in a offense like that, because he has little out side shot and doesn't get respect, so the d can sag. I think thats why we see the style of play from Rondo. Hopefully in the offseason he gets some jump shots in.

Online SHAQATTACK

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 08:01:30 AM »
As Rondo goes the team goes.......too much Rondo with the ball is worst than not having him at all.

Tonight's game, we will miss Rondo.....Rondo would usually show up for games that interest him.

Raptors game was topical of the games the Celtics dropped with Rondo's lazy , low effort games, where the Celtics would fold and move on to the next game........or one Rondo feels like he should contribute and play hard.

seems the whole team does better without him screwing up the offense

Offline Snakehead

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 08:03:35 AM »
C'mon, guys.  The OP compared Rondo to Jordan.  It can't be all bad.

LOL TP.

Well there was something of worth in this thread.


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Online Fafnir

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 08:15:47 AM »

There are also statistics that show we aren't really any better offensively when Rondo is on the court, ultimately we are about the same.

Those don't really exist. The on/off court numbers show that we turn the ball over less, get to the free throw line only 2 times less per 48 and shoot better efg% when he's on the court.

The one and only reason our ORTG was lower with him "on" the court was our offensive rebounding was far worse with him on the court. Essentially he played a lot of minutes without Sullinger as he was our best, only really, offensive rebounding threat. Even the FTA differential was likely due to the offensive board difference as putbacks draw so many foul shots.

Online Fafnir

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 08:17:14 AM »
Given that Rondo isn't even the biggest ball hog in the league currently by a long shot, he has some serious work to do to compare to Jordan.

Offline pearljammer10

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2013, 08:21:05 AM »
This is downright stupid, for lack of a better word.
A ball hog that gets 11 assists per game.

And don't come back with the " he gets the assists cause he holds the ball too much" or " he stat pads "

30 out of 30 teams in this league would easily take Rondo with open arms, regardless of his "attitude problem" as some would call it, I prefer to call it his Edge.

This team has used Rondo as a crutch when he's on the floor, and that's on Doc, and on the team. That's what he preaches, get the ball to Rondo, he'll make the plays.
But that doesn't always work, as we all know.
I think this team has turned a new page, realizing that they can move the ball and easily get buckets.
A healthy Rondo can and will adapt to the new system, he is the best passer in the league for crying out loud.

If I could close this thread I would..
SMH some people..

This about sums it up.


Now that's funny




Hey Jordan's bulls were fine the regular season after his first retirement...

Then this thing called the playoffs happened

And this is also a good point. Rondo has always "pounded the ball" into the ground. And the team has had incredible success doing so. Why should Rondo and the Celtics successful system change just because 9 new players are here adapting to it.
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Offline JumpingJudkins

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2013, 08:56:27 AM »
Rondo is a great player, and we're unfortunately not winning anything without him. Maybe his absence, though, will be a wakeup call to Doc.

 It's been enormously frustrating the last two or three years watching the stagnant offense. Rondo dribbling the ball for 19 seconds, waiting for someone to come off a screen, or waiting for PP or KG to get post up position on their defenders, while they're being overplayed or double-teamed. My son thinks I'm crazy when I keep screaming "Move the ball!!" at the TV screen.

Without Rondo, the offense is moving (though making some atrocious passes, at least last night). Without Rondo, the offense is pushing the ball up the court with the pass -- looking for the player furthest ahead with the outlet, rather than tossing the ball backwards or to wherever Rondo happens to be at that time.

It's pretty to see, and I hope Doc somehow notices this. They can easily run the same offense with Rondo, and it would be even better.

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Rondo is the Biggest Ball Hog since Jordan.
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2013, 08:57:49 AM »
Is ball hogging bad?
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