Author Topic: Rondo can adapt  (Read 2831 times)

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Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2013, 05:10:16 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense.  He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
Everyone clearly has a different point of view on this but I agree 100% with LarBrd33. Although you tend to see stretches where Rondo just works the ball more but it seems to always revert back to the norm of Rondo dribbling and waiting for a pass that can result in an assist.

One thing I notice that the coach could fix is after a defensive rebound, if Rondo is on the court, they always give him the ball and he dribbles it the rest of the way, always.  Without Rondo, they just seem to let whoever advance the ball and tend to pass more.  It seems like they have been told to get Rondo the ball.

Rondo is dangerous as a passer in this situation but I would prefer to see them just taking what is there and let Rondo end up with the ball only when that is a more natural result (vs. always forcing the ball to him).

The defenses though sag off Rondo once you get in a play set situation.  Rondo then seems to fall into the trap of not wanting to shoot and not being pressured so he just dribbles and looks.  It is a self sustaining cycle that is the result of Rondo not being a shooting threat that the other team is worried about.

If Rondo passes the ball, his man just goes off and doubles.  I guess when Rondo is on the floor, we are probably better off with the ball in his hands and his man sagging vs. Rondo not having the ball and his man doubling whoever does have the ball.  Thus the the cycle continues of Rondo holding the ball, dribbling, waiting......
TP.  It's also why we don't post very often and why we went out of our way to find bigs who could hit jump shots (both by training Glen Davis to shoot and then trading Davis for a better version in Brandon Bass).  Having jump shooting big men opens the paint for Rondo drives and allows him to be surrounded with 4 guys capable of knocking down shots.  If you tried to post up with Rondo out there, Rondo's defender would sag off and the post-up player would get doubled.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2013, 05:44:13 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2013, 06:46:25 PM »

Online BballTim

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2013, 06:52:21 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2013, 09:47:54 PM »

Online BballTim

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2013, 12:15:47 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2013, 01:09:22 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2013, 06:31:49 AM »

Offline kgainez

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shooting 48% is not respectable. means he's missing more than he makes them -- and in reality in 1 game he makes em all and in another game he misses them all. you'd much rather Rondo take the shot than PP or KG, who would probably shoot 60% or more from that area. If I'm the opposing team.

I'd also like to know how Rondo would adapt to this. I can't see it right now. I also said he could be a cutter but I'm not 100% sure that's his game. Rondo kinda needs the ball in his hands.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:40:52 AM by kgainez »

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2013, 08:08:43 AM »

Online Fafnir

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shooting 48% is not respectable. means he's missing more than he makes them -- and in reality in 1 game he makes em all and in another game he misses them all. you'd much rather Rondo take the shot than PP or KG, who would probably shoot 60% or more from that area. If I'm the opposing team.

I'd also like to know how Rondo would adapt to this. I can't see it right now. I also said he could be a cutter but I'm not 100% sure that's his game. Rondo kinda needs the ball in his hands.
I don't think you have a good view of what "respectable" fg% is. Everyone is streaky and mid to high 40s is very good for jump shots.

Rondo is an excellent off the ball cutter, just hasn't done it as much since getting more ball handling responsibility. If you want evidence roll some 07-09 tape. He's very sneaky on the baseline too.

I'm not worried about Rondo adapting to a less ball dominant role,

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2013, 11:24:16 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot?  Have they continued to double off of Rondo?  Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball? 

Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball.  He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2013, 11:31:48 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot?  Have they continued to double off of Rondo?  Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball? 

Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball.  He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.

Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).

Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2013, 11:44:14 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot?  Have they continued to double off of Rondo?  Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball? 

Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball.  He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.

Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).

Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.
Clearly, me and you see things differently.  I'm not a metrics guy so I don't know what they say about this, but yeah, I still see Rondo passing up lots of shots.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 12:00:24 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot?  Have they continued to double off of Rondo?  Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball? 

Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball.  He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.

Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).

Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.
Clearly, me and you see things differently.  I'm not a metrics guy so I don't know what they say about this, but yeah, I still see Rondo passing up lots of shots.

What he does do is not take open layups and passing it, don't know if that's what you're referring to. But this year, whenever he's been in a set position open, and the pass goes to him, he's been taking it. This wasn't the case in other seasons... last year he started taking them with more frequency, but still inconsistent. This year he's been quite consistent with his jump shots, both at taking them and making them. In fact, this is the first season where I've seen him quite a few times try to take an off the dribble jump shot in transition.

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2013, 12:41:25 PM »

Online BballTim

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Here is why Rondo may not fit.  If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense.  Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless.  Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.

  Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball.  Game plan all you want.  But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.

  His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats.  Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year.  But that really doesn't tell the whole story.  Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo.  Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball.  Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.

  Never mind the fact that he takes more of those long twos than the average point guards and has for a few years/

Re: Rondo can adapt
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 02:10:49 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Can you actually provide ANY evidence that Rondo eats up more of the shot clock than any other player? Or that our team is paying at a faster pace, now?
You can't provide evidence that he "eats up" shot clock, because for it to be non-anecdotal, someone has to actually track down what we do during a shot clock. A 20-second possession in which we passed the ball around 5 times is fundamentally different than a 20-second possession where Rondo dribbled around for 12 seconds waiting for something to happen. To my knowledge, no-one keeps easily accessible, large dataset of this.
Apparently I was wrong:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4702036/grantland-are-cs-really-better

Hat tip to gar for digging this out in another thread.
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