Author Topic: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?  (Read 7534 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 05:42:00 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7307
  • Tommy Points: 943
Hope matters.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »

Offline Atzar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2978
  • Tommy Points: 191
You need to at least feel it is a possibility. That you can compete for one or your team will get a chance to play for one down the road. That is building towards a title.

Agree with this.

The banner is the goal.  The Celtics have been fortunate enough as a franchise that the only thing that gets put in the rafters is a championship banner.  That's the standard to which Celtics teams are held. 

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1571
  • Tommy Points: 116
  • Everyone's excited for the new era.
First off, TP for a great post.

I was having this same talk with my parents a week or two ago (they were angry that I get so worked up over Celtics game; i.e. shouting at TV, sulking after losses, spending too much time on CelticsBlog.  ;D).  They told me it was just a game, and that sports was mere entertainment.

I come from a family that isn't so much into sports.  My uncle is the only true basketball fan in my family (He's a Laker fan; I'm from Pasadena), and when I first became a fan of the Celtics, we were the underdog, so I was immediately drawn towards them.  The first game I saw was when Pierce hit the buzzer beater vs the Heat in the 2010 playoffs, and I watched as we lost to the Lakers.  This defeat made me think, "Well, they made it to the Finals, I guess they are contenders."  And for the most part, they have been.

2011 we were great until Shaq went down and Perk got traded, then last year we became true contenders in the playoffs, and even this year before Rondo blew out his knee I felt we had a puncher's chance.  Every year, I've expected us to be there at the end.

And why shouldn't Celtics fans feel this way?  After all, we have the most titles in NBA history, don't we?

The more I watched the team, though, the more I became connected to the players, especially KG.  His intensity was a characteristic of Celtic Pride, as is Pierce's heart and determination, and even Rondo's uniqueness and silent arrogance could be seen as the values of a true Celtic.  The players that have played here during this era have treated us to competitive, hard-nosed basketball, and while it may not always be pretty, they always seemed to respond to criticism.

That's what I'll remember about this team: resilience.  Win or lose, when the Celtics walked off the floor of a big game, I'm sure as hell I can say, "Those guys went down swinging."

If/when KG and Pierce are traded/retire, I'll shed a tear.  This era has truly been a blessing, and even though these guys only have one championship to show for it, they gave me a million more memories that I'll never forget.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 05:46:30 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5133
  • Tommy Points: 328
However, most of the "trade KG / Pierce" fans are doing it because they feel like a season without a title is a failure.

I can't speak for others, but my feeling on trading KG and Pierce is not that simple.  This era has only produced one title, yet I'd only say the team "failed" if I felt like they didn't leave everything on the floor, if it seemed to me they fell short of their potential. 

I loved last season's team, and I feel great about how it all ended up.  The 2010 team redeemed itself in that sense, too.  2009 was bittersweet, but it wasn't a failure.  I felt the 2011 team never got to play their best basketball in the playoffs, but that wasn't entirely in their hands either.


The thing about this season's team isn't just that they don't have a real shot at a championship.  It's that they're, at best, a slightly above average team that isn't going to get any better in the near future.  Maintaining the status quo is fine if you're talking about a 50+ win team that can be competitive in the playoffs each year.  A team that will work hard to finish just above .500 and might not win a playoff series?  Much harder to justify.

Quote from: Roy Hobbs
How many fans of losing franchises would kill to have the chance to watch KG play every night?  How many fans of other franchises would love to cheer on the second and fourth leading scorers among active players?

I don't doubt that fans of hapless, poorly managed franchises would jump at the chance to watch established, competent players for once.  I'm not so starved for decent play.  I've enjoyed these guys the past 5 years.  But the product on the floor is only going to get worse. 

Those great moments from Pierce and KG are coming less and less often.  More often than not we instead watch them struggle to keep up with younger, more athletic but less skilled, less experienced, less distinguished players.

I know I'm not in the majority on this, but I'd prefer to see KG and Pierce go elsewhere and do what they still have more than enough talent to do at a high level: be supporting players on a championship contender.  Their days of being the headliners of a great team may be over, but they can still make great plays.  Their careers might actually last longer and end on a brighter note if they aren't weighed down with the responsibility of carrying a team each night.

Quote from: Roy Hobbs
There's a lot of criticism that fans who root with their hearts or with sentimentality are somehow missing the bigger picture.  I don't think so.  Watching the Captain hit a dagger against the Clippers or watching KG make a huge defensive play are always going to be enjoyable experiences, and there's nothing at all wrong with those fans who want to enjoy another season or two of that before we move on to the next phase.  To many fans, it's infinitely more enjoyable to watch KG bleed green than it is to root for the next Gerald Green.

I don't begrudge anybody for feeling that way.  Reasonable people can disagree on this, because largely it is a matter of the heart -- it defies logic.  As Jeff has said many times on the front page: head says "Hmm" heart says "NOOOO!".

Personally, what has thrilled me most in recent seasons is watching the emergence of players like Avery Bradley and Jared Sullinger, along with the captivating playoff domination of Rajon Rondo (though in the regular season he still drives me nuts).  I'm excited to see what the next core of Celtics stars will look like, and I hope it's a group we can cheer on for many successful, fulfilling seasons (whether they result in championships or not).

I just think we're watching the sunset of this era.  Sunsets are beautiful.  But I'm ready for the sunrise -- even if it means we have to wait through a season or two of night.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 05:49:39 PM »

Offline syfy9

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1873
  • Tommy Points: 290
  • We may as well put Tyrion in at center.
I'd rather be competitive for 10 years and win 1 championship during that time than be awful in 5 but win the next year.
I like Marcus Smart

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 05:56:47 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8876
  • Tommy Points: 1152
You need to at least feel it is a possibility. That you can compete for one or your team will get a chance to play for one down the road. That is building towards a title.

I agree with this, with one exception: if the team has been terrible for a long time (e.g. 4-5 seasons) and the organization has been in disarray, then I'd start to feel like just having a reasonably competitive season that ended in a trip to the playoffs would be worthwhile, even if the team made a few "win-now" moves at the expense of potential to do it. 

For example, if I were a fan of the Kings or the Wizards, I'd be okay with trading young guys just to put together a decent, watchable team for a season or three.  It's important, I think, not to get stuck in a recurring cycle of losing.  There's long-term value in breaking out of that.

That thinking is what affects my willingness to blow up the Celtics -- it's not always wrong to want to keep a playoff-caliber team together just for the sake of making the playoffs despite the fact that you have no realistic shot at a championship. 

But when the team has been a contender or fringe contender for 5 straight years, I don't feel a desperate need to win 40 or so games just for the sake of it.  I can deal with this team being in the lottery for a few years if it means we can get closer to being a 60 win team sooner.

For me, I look at the flip side of this.  When you've been a contender or "fringe contender" for five straight years, I want to milk that out for as much as I can possibly get out of the team.  If I think we can at least be a fringe contender again (which I do), then it's six straight years of being in contention.  In the grand scheme of things, yes, it's only one title (two would be almost miraculous--but I won't say impossible--at this point), but it's a team that's battled to stay near the top for an extended period of time.  To me that's impressive, not as impressive as championships, but something to take pride in as a fan.  Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, that beats five or six years or more of "just wait until next year."

Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov/B. Wright/A. Nicholson

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 06:01:12 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5133
  • Tommy Points: 328
You need to at least feel it is a possibility. That you can compete for one or your team will get a chance to play for one down the road. That is building towards a title.

I agree with this, with one exception: if the team has been terrible for a long time (e.g. 4-5 seasons) and the organization has been in disarray, then I'd start to feel like just having a reasonably competitive season that ended in a trip to the playoffs would be worthwhile, even if the team made a few "win-now" moves at the expense of potential to do it. 

For example, if I were a fan of the Kings or the Wizards, I'd be okay with trading young guys just to put together a decent, watchable team for a season or three.  It's important, I think, not to get stuck in a recurring cycle of losing.  There's long-term value in breaking out of that.

That thinking is what affects my willingness to blow up the Celtics -- it's not always wrong to want to keep a playoff-caliber team together just for the sake of making the playoffs despite the fact that you have no realistic shot at a championship. 

But when the team has been a contender or fringe contender for 5 straight years, I don't feel a desperate need to win 40 or so games just for the sake of it.  I can deal with this team being in the lottery for a few years if it means we can get closer to being a 60 win team sooner.

For me, I look at the flip side of this.  When you've been a contender or "fringe contender" for five straight years, I want to milk that out for as much as I can possibly get out of the team. 

And I think that's a valid point of view, just not one that I share.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 06:07:41 PM »

Online Moranis

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9785
  • Tommy Points: 418
Yes absolutely 100% without question.

I have posted my fan mantra on the site before, but here it is again.

If your team is not a realistic championship contender or is not a young team with pieces that could become a realistic contender, then the team needs to be taking active and real steps to do one of the two things otherwise they are just wasting time and delaying the inevitable. 

This Celtics team is neither of those things so I will be angry if no moves (in either direction) are made.  That is why I was such a big fan of the Ray Allen trade, before the Kevin Garnett trade, as it sent a real purpose and direction to the team and I knew another move was imminent.  It is also why I was so disappointed with this past summer. Boston made a lot of moves but none really put the team closer to a title and Boston lost all long term flexibility.  I would have much rather been a team like Dallas this year giving it a go one last time, but without giving up the cap flexibility going forward.  You don't sign Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, and Courtney Lee to 3 or 4 year contracts for big money to a team that is very old and not all that close to a title.  Those signings would have been ok, if KG and PP were 5 years younger, but not last summer.

Ainge absolutely needs to take the steps to clear off the flotsam and get back the flexibility and either blow it up or make real moves that put the team closer to a title.  1 or the other, but sitting back and doing nothing, just prolongs the time period in which the Celtics will not win a title and that is just bad.  The goal is to win a title, not to barely make the playoffs and lose in the first round.
2014 Pick 2 Draft 18th pick of 20
Sacramento Kings
Starters - Isaiah Thomas, Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Dirk Nowitzki, Demarcus Cousins
Bench - Kendall Marshall, Michael Carter-Williams, Vince Carter, Wesley Johnson, Marcus Morris, Miles Plumlee, Nerlens Noel

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
Also id rather be known as a championship or bust team than a team that is just satisfied making the playoffs every year.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 06:15:37 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8876
  • Tommy Points: 1152
First off, TP for a great post.

I was having this same talk with my parents a week or two ago (they were angry that I get so worked up over Celtics game; i.e. shouting at TV, sulking after losses, spending too much time on CelticsBlog.  ;D).  They told me it was just a game, and that sports was mere entertainment.

I come from a family that isn't so much into sports.  My uncle is the only true basketball fan in my family (He's a Laker fan; I'm from Pasadena), and when I first became a fan of the Celtics, we were the underdog, so I was immediately drawn towards them.  The first game I saw was when Pierce hit the buzzer beater vs the Heat in the 2010 playoffs, and I watched as we lost to the Lakers.  This defeat made me think, "Well, they made it to the Finals, I guess they are contenders."  And for the most part, they have been.

2011 we were great until Shaq went down and Perk got traded, then last year we became true contenders in the playoffs, and even this year before Rondo blew out his knee I felt we had a puncher's chance.  Every year, I've expected us to be there at the end.

And why shouldn't Celtics fans feel this way?  After all, we have the most titles in NBA history, don't we?

The more I watched the team, though, the more I became connected to the players, especially KG.  His intensity was a characteristic of Celtic Pride, as is Pierce's heart and determination, and even Rondo's uniqueness and silent arrogance could be seen as the values of a true Celtic.  The players that have played here during this era have treated us to competitive, hard-nosed basketball, and while it may not always be pretty, they always seemed to respond to criticism.

That's what I'll remember about this team: resilience.  Win or lose, when the Celtics walked off the floor of a big game, I'm sure as hell I can say, "Those guys went down swinging."

If/when KG and Pierce are traded/retire, I'll shed a tear.  This era has truly been a blessing, and even though these guys only have one championship to show for it, they gave me a million more memories that I'll never forget.

This is my favorite post in a really long time.  It's great to hear from a young Celtics fan who didn't live through all the "glory years" of Russell, Cousy, Havlicheck, Bird, etc, but sees the same qualities in this current team that can be nicely summed up by the term "Celtic Pride." 

If these guys must go down, I absolutely expect them to go down swinging. 

TP.
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov/B. Wright/A. Nicholson

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2013, 06:18:12 PM »

Offline Lucky17

  • DKC Commish
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13987
  • Tommy Points: 1692
  • DKC Orlando Magic
I think I'd rather watch KG lose Game 7 than watch Ron Artest hoist the championship trophy while wearing Celtic green.
DKC Orlando Magic Roster:  http://tinyurl.com/DKC-Orlando2014
PG: I. Thomas / L. Ridnour | SG: B. Knight / I. Shumpert / B. McLemore
SF: T. Sefolosha / T. Harris / J. Ennis
PF: Jo. Smith / J. Jerebko / J. Stokes | C:  Nene / J. Sullinger / K. Perkins
DKC Picks Log: http://tinyurl.com/DKCPicks

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2013, 06:34:02 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
I think I'd rather watch KG lose Game 7 than watch Ron Artest hoist the championship trophy while wearing Celtic green.

This is just silly......you'd rather watch your team lose in heartbreaking fashion than win a championship with artest on our team? Really silly line of thinking there.

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2013, 06:41:17 PM »

Offline Lucky17

  • DKC Commish
  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13987
  • Tommy Points: 1692
  • DKC Orlando Magic
I think I'd rather watch KG lose Game 7 than watch Ron Artest hoist the championship trophy while wearing Celtic green.

This is just silly......you'd rather watch your team lose in heartbreaking fashion than win a championship with artest on our team? Really silly line of thinking there.

Call me silly, then. I think I would.

I don't root for the laundry. I root for the players, especially the ones that instill me with pride. I'd hate it if Ron Artest were traded to the Celtics. Would absolutely hate it.
DKC Orlando Magic Roster:  http://tinyurl.com/DKC-Orlando2014
PG: I. Thomas / L. Ridnour | SG: B. Knight / I. Shumpert / B. McLemore
SF: T. Sefolosha / T. Harris / J. Ennis
PF: Jo. Smith / J. Jerebko / J. Stokes | C:  Nene / J. Sullinger / K. Perkins
DKC Picks Log: http://tinyurl.com/DKCPicks

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2013, 06:54:36 PM »

Online Moranis

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9785
  • Tommy Points: 418
I think I'd rather watch KG lose Game 7 than watch Ron Artest hoist the championship trophy while wearing Celtic green.

This is just silly......you'd rather watch your team lose in heartbreaking fashion than win a championship with artest on our team? Really silly line of thinking there.

Call me silly, then. I think I would.

I don't root for the laundry. I root for the players, especially the ones that instill me with pride. I'd hate it if Ron Artest were traded to the Celtics. Would absolutely hate it.
why? Artest isn't a rapist, murderer, etc.  he is a guy with very real mental issues, that has done a lot of good for the mental health community.  He is also the ultimate competitor.
2014 Pick 2 Draft 18th pick of 20
Sacramento Kings
Starters - Isaiah Thomas, Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Dirk Nowitzki, Demarcus Cousins
Bench - Kendall Marshall, Michael Carter-Williams, Vince Carter, Wesley Johnson, Marcus Morris, Miles Plumlee, Nerlens Noel

Re: As a fan, are championships the only thing that matter?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 06:59:05 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
I think I'd rather watch KG lose Game 7 than watch Ron Artest hoist the championship trophy while wearing Celtic green.

This is just silly......you'd rather watch your team lose in heartbreaking fashion than win a championship with artest on our team? Really silly line of thinking there.

Call me silly, then. I think I would.

I don't root for the laundry. I root for the players, especially the ones that instill me with pride. I'd hate it if Ron Artest were traded to the Celtics. Would absolutely hate it.

You have it backwards. So if you don't like the players on the team you're no longer a celtics fan? I root for whoever wears that celtic jersey. I root for players but nobody is more important than the team. Nobody is more important than the boston celtics.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog