Author Topic: Thoroughly Confused.  (Read 3310 times)

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 12:48:53 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 12:54:02 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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seems like the team might be playing with something to prove. I unfortunately think they'll come down to earth.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's like a team that gets a new coach mid-season and goes on a win streak.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2013, 12:55:46 PM »

Offline kgainez

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I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them

1. sacramento beat us by 20ish points when PP was shooting fine.
2. you can argue AB back was pure excitement, as the last 3 games we won were still very ugly games in the 6 game winning streak.
3. how can you say what game we would've won with Rondo? lol. We lost to them by 15ish in the season opener.
4. i will take orlando as the obvious give me win.
5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2013, 01:08:51 PM »

Offline AshyLarry

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And as usual, Celtics fans just have no clue how to feel right now.

I feel like an early adolescent again, just so many emotions, and not sure what to do with them, who to hate on, who to be happy with. Rondo's the best passing pg in the NBA, but wait, our passing's better without him!!

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

We're just so mixed up! Hahaha it's ridiculous.
My pic is now, and will be Fab Melo until he posts his first official NBA dbl-dbl. This may be permanent.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 01:19:08 PM »

Online Fafnir

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5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.
Clippers have been playing poorly lately. They're under .500 since January 1st and have a point differential of essentially zero. They're missing CP3 badly and their bench has come back to earth.

Plus the C's could have easily lost that game, just as they did to the Hawks.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.
This is true with any small group of wins, you have to keep winning for it to mean something. With so many games of bad play, more games of inconsistent play, and fewest of all games of superior play the team has to prove it.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 01:22:16 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them

1. sacramento beat us by 20ish points when PP was shooting fine.
2. you can argue AB back was pure excitement, as the last 3 games we won were still very ugly games in the 6 game winning streak.
3. how can you say what game we would've won with Rondo? lol. We lost to them by 15ish in the season opener.
4. i will take orlando as the obvious give me win.
5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.

Rondo has easily been the best player vs Miami for us in recent years and we clearly could've used him in that eventual double ot win..maybe that's why.

Sacramento played their best game in years that night, the Celtics were out west on a back to back, rondo came back too soon from a hip injury that game, still no Bradley in the lineup...you can't compare it with a young garbage road team playing across the country in the garden and playing the exact opposite effort wise as when we saw them in Sacramento..sorry just can't.

Clippers another team playing across the country at 1 o clock no less without their top player and already slumping on top of it, getting blown out by the raptors the game before and losing to the wizards following...they're not playing well.

Look I am happy they aren't going into the tank and as pierce has directly stated "playing for rondo" but this is easily fools gold
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:30:05 PM by scaryjerry »

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 05:48:43 PM »

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.

  More effort, more focus, more aggressiveness. Probably better help defense, possibly getting back quicker. Nothing major, but there wasn't really anything major that was wrong with us. We've been very streaky, meaning we were capable of playing well but haven't done it consistently. That's why I was less pessimistic abut our chances than many here. Take the team the way it's playing now and put it in the playoffs with a healthy Rondo and they'd be capable of beating anyone.

The second unit has been doing this quite consistently for a while now though. Pierce comes and goes just the same, KG is always elite, Bradley is always on... so I really don't see much of a change.

The only one I can point to is Bass, but once again I have to take note that he was already beginning to put more effort this year, and I think this had more to do with the wakeup call of when Sully was inserted into the starting line-up which seemed to light a fire under him.

We're missing Sully though, who had been very solid to very good as of late defensively for that second unit thought.

The only change has been the absence of Rondo, but you already now my opinion on his defensive style, so no need to rehash.

During our struggles, it was the second unit that kept us in games or gave us a chance to win for the most part, and what I'm seeing now is more of a continuation of the same.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 06:39:27 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo. 

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 07:01:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 07:05:12 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 07:29:30 PM »

Offline Greenback

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Has anyone seen the article by Chris Frosberg that states: 

"Boston's most successful five-man unit during this four-game stretch has been Leandro Barbosa, Jason Terry, Paul Pierce, Jeff Green, and Jason Collins.

According to lineup data logged by NBA.com, that unit has the best overall plus/minus of any Boston unit over the last four games checking in at plus-16 in 12 minutes of floor time (which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's the fourth most used lineup in that span).

Sure, plus/minus isn't the only barometer for quality play, but it's hard to argue with the bottom line. That five-man unit shot 80 percent both overall (16 of 20) and beyond the 3-point arc (4 of 5) and generated 45 points in those 12 minutes. That output is crazy enough on its own, but even more so when you consider that unit turned the ball over eight times as well. The five-man unit owned a ridiculous 148.6 offensive rating during its floor time (only somewhat diminished by a 103.3 defensive rating, even as opponents shot a mere 37 percent). "

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701996/lineup-watch-whats-working


Still confused? He backs it up with statistics and small sample sizes... :)


Ainge days indeed. Most peculiar mama, roll!

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 07:31:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo.

  When you say "key players" it depends on whether your goal is to be respectable or a contender. It's true that, with the bigs on the roster, the wheels fall off without KG. But I think out of the big three if PP/RR play good but not great and KG plays great we won't get far. If KG/RR play good but not great and PP plays great we can go far, and if KG/PP are good and Rondo's great we can go far. The problem with PP is that he can play great ball but he can't sustain it for any length of time.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 07:34:00 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.

  Again, when we get into a playoff series against a top defensive team we can put your analysis to the test.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 07:40:03 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Has anyone seen the article by Chris Frosberg that states: 

"Boston's most successful five-man unit during this four-game stretch has been Leandro Barbosa, Jason Terry, Paul Pierce, Jeff Green, and Jason Collins.

According to lineup data logged by NBA.com, that unit has the best overall plus/minus of any Boston unit over the last four games checking in at plus-16 in 12 minutes of floor time (which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's the fourth most used lineup in that span).

Sure, plus/minus isn't the only barometer for quality play, but it's hard to argue with the bottom line. That five-man unit shot 80 percent both overall (16 of 20) and beyond the 3-point arc (4 of 5) and generated 45 points in those 12 minutes. That output is crazy enough on its own, but even more so when you consider that unit turned the ball over eight times as well. The five-man unit owned a ridiculous 148.6 offensive rating during its floor time (only somewhat diminished by a 103.3 defensive rating, even as opponents shot a mere 37 percent). "

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701996/lineup-watch-whats-working


Still confused? He backs it up with statistics and small sample sizes... :)

  Sounds like proof that we don't need KG.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 07:47:01 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Some teams simply play better when faced with adversity.
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