Author Topic: Thoroughly Confused.  (Read 3421 times)

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 09:00:15 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.
I'd be surprised if anyone on the team goes out to directly say we're better without Rondo. Not great for team-building. So they will give you the party line of how it's "not any one guy" and "everyone has to step up".

But to me at least it's kind of obvious that there are surprisingly many things that the team does better without Rondo.

The guys that have been through the wars with rondo know we aren't better, or better off...the new guys might be naive and delusional enough and just happy to get the minutes...the "party line" is pretty accurate but idk maybe we just need to lose someone else for the year to be true contenders since we seem to do things better without rondo and sully ::) ::)

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 09:09:06 AM »

Online BballTim

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I think that's a very accurate first point Tim. 

I think particularly Terry will play better because now he gets to play more minutes, but mostly, with the ball in his hands more where he is most threatening.  He will be the biggest beneficiary.  I think he'll revert to the level he played in Dallas.

I think Bass will play better because he will now be back in his role he had last season opposed to being jerked in and out of the starting lineup with another PF breathing down his neck.

I think Green will play better because the sheer increase in minutes at backup 4 and backup 3 will allow him to just play whereas before I think he was thinking about his game too much and how he should play.

Lee will probably benefit from the new style of play given his comment leaked a week ago regarding personal preference on that issue.  Inconsistent playing time had to be a concern of his too.

I could manufacture a reason for the rest of the gang, but I'd rather stick with those 4 because I think the reasons are pretty natural and evident to all who watch.

  I'm not arguing with people who claim that certain players are playing better when Rondo's not there and they have the ball more, I just don't think our overall offense has been better.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 09:23:31 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players. 
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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 09:27:21 AM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up into their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who need to be the #4 to excel.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 09:29:40 AM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players.

Great post.  TP

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 09:32:01 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players.

Great post.  TP

Thanks.  I'll give a TP for a compliment.
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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 09:41:35 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 09:51:10 AM »

Online BballTim

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up into their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who need to be the #4 to excel.

  I was getting fairly curious about how the playoffs were going to pan out. Doc was going to have to tell Sully or Bass and one of the sgs that they were out of the regular rotation so he could go with his usual 8-9 players. I think a lot of the improvements from steadier minutes and better defined roles would have been realized then instead of now.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 09:52:31 AM »

Offline LilRip

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i really think it was the logjam. too many guys worthy of minutes, but not enough minutes to go around. guys seem to just be playing more free now. barbosa has done a pretty good job too, and he was hardly playing before rondo went down.

this is kinda why i wanted to trade rondo earlier on too. not wanting to start any debates again (because lets face it, rondo's not getting traded with a torn acl), but say we got a guy like Cousins for him. We get pretty much equal talent coming in, it frees up a ton of minutes for our guards (Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa) and we don't have to play Collins and Wilcox at all. Of course, it would destroy KG and Pierce to see Rondo go, and i dunno if the damage to chemistry would be irreparable, but Cousins is legit.
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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »

Offline kgainez

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i'm confused as well and I'm trying not to get too up or down about the team. just enjoying the wins. i feel like a trade is going to happen but i mean...say we only lose a handful of games (less than 5) by feb 21. DA really going to break that up? hmm

I think the players are being utilized better. This worries me because t makes me feel like Doc is being exposed as well as Rondo. I think we obviously miss Sully's rebounding but if we could get more from Wilcox athleticism, that MIGHT even things out just a LIL bit.

And then the offense has looked so good because the floor is so SPREAD. People do not respect Rondo's shot...at all...even if he is 48% mid range. They still sag off him and make KG and PP's job harder. So when he returns are we really supposed to play this spread, free offense? I'm not concerned about Rondo being loose, but just about Rondo being effective like that.

I don't know. It's all so confusing.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2013, 10:33:02 AM »

Online BballTim

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i really think it was the logjam. too many guys worthy of minutes, but not enough minutes to go around. guys seem to just be playing more free now. barbosa has done a pretty good job too, and he was hardly playing before rondo went down.

this is kinda why i wanted to trade rondo earlier on too. not wanting to start any debates again (because lets face it, rondo's not getting traded with a torn acl), but say we got a guy like Cousins for him. We get pretty much equal talent coming in, it frees up a ton of minutes for our guards (Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa) and we don't have to play Collins and Wilcox at all. Of course, it would destroy KG and Pierce to see Rondo go, and i dunno if the damage to chemistry would be irreparable, but Cousins is legit.

  I'm not a big fan of Cousins or of unloading your best player in order to free up playing time for the backups.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2013, 10:38:40 AM »

Online BballTim

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2013, 10:43:03 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2013, 10:49:30 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.

Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 12:05:36 PM »

Online BballTim

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We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.

  More effort, more focus, more aggressiveness. Probably better help defense, possibly getting back quicker. Nothing major, but there wasn't really anything major that was wrong with us. We've been very streaky, meaning we were capable of playing well but haven't done it consistently. That's why I was less pessimistic abut our chances than many here. Take the team the way it's playing now and put it in the playoffs with a healthy Rondo and they'd be capable of beating anyone.

 

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