Author Topic: Thoroughly Confused.  (Read 2831 times)

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Online ctrey

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Thoroughly Confused.
« on: February 04, 2013, 11:56:10 PM »
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)

Again, I tend to think that losing Rondo and Sullinger will start to wear us down. I do not believe we can make it to the Finals or win a title as the team is now. This has all been terribly heroic but I do not expect it to last. However, they do have a different "look" about them so who knows?

Finally there seems to be a staggering amount of smoke on the trade front. That just adds to confusion about this team. Who is going? Who may stay? Will they trade to simply get under the tax line or will the rebuilding begin? It would seem at least one more PF or C is needed. Should Wilcox or Collins go down (A real possibility I think) we would be in huge trouble. I also find it interesting that the team seems to have indicated that Sullinger could have kept playing but that they elected to shut him down now with a view towards the future. Things become even more curious.

I see no one on the free agent scrap heap worth picking up. This Kenyon Martin love befuddles me to say the least. If he had anything left someone would have given him a shot. I think between having nothing in the tank and not being the greatest locker room type people are done with him.

Look, at the very least watching them finally play with boundless heart and passion is a thrill. At the same time the whole thing seems to have a smoke and mirrors quality to it. Every few minutes another trade rumor regarding one of our players pops up. Every hour a mention of "perhaps they are better without Rondo" is posted.

It sure is weird. That is for sure. All I know is that between now and February 21st we are in for a bumpy ride.

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 01:00:32 AM »
Feel similar(ly confused, lol) on all fronts. Enjoyed the post. TP.

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 01:25:07 AM »
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

In the long run tho i don't think we will have enough star power to bring down the heat or bulls. When i say star power i mean the guys that will take over the game when needed in the playoffs. Pierce and kg can do it at times but i don't think they can do it consistently enough.

Offline kg is king

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 01:54:41 AM »
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)
I am sorry but I'll have to disagree with the bolded statement. Granger and Green are not similar players. Granger is a career 38% shooter from three whereas Green is at 34%. Green is an average shooter at best who thrives on posting up smaller players and in transition. Granger on the other hand can create his own shots better than Green, but is primarily a jump shooter.
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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 02:43:28 AM »
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)
I am sorry but I'll have to disagree with the bolded statement. Granger and Green are not similar players. Granger is a career 38% shooter from three whereas Green is at 34%. Green is an average shooter at best who thrives on posting up smaller players and in transition. Granger on the other hand can create his own shots better than Green, but is primarily a jump shooter.

Danny Granger hasn't looked like Danny Granger in a long time. Nobody seems to know why. It is concerning.

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Offline Smutzy#9

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 03:53:59 AM »
Im gonna put it this way. During the season losing Rondo may seem so so. The area where it is really going to show is in the playoffs where half court sets are in full swing and the pace of the game slows right down.

Offline jdz101

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 06:36:50 AM »
Im gonna put it this way. During the season losing Rondo may seem so so. The area where it is really going to show is in the playoffs where half court sets are in full swing and the pace of the game slows right down.



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Offline BballTim

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 07:58:37 AM »
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 08:06:30 AM »
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I'm not saying the celtics have never played well with rondo dominating the ball. Everything always looks better when everybody is hitting jumpshots.

I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 08:07:09 AM »
I'm almost positive rondo plays his best game of the year if he doesn't get injured against the heat in a win...the next 3 wins are luck of the draw and all at home...the clippers just lost to the wizards and playing their worst ball of the year.

Yeah doc simplified things and the team is playing harder now that they've been counted out and their pride was on the line...not buying anything yet other then the east is weak and we could possibly still make some noise.

For the people who think we're better without Rondo....better without sully too? All of a sudden bass and Collins look better then they have all year and Wilcox gets minutes   :P

Offline action781

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 08:37:09 AM »
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I think that's a very accurate first point Tim. 

I think particularly Terry will play better because now he gets to play more minutes, but mostly, with the ball in his hands more where he is most threatening.  He will be the biggest beneficiary.  I think he'll revert to the level he played in Dallas.

I think Bass will play better because he will now be back in his role he had last season opposed to being jerked in and out of the starting lineup with another PF breathing down his neck.

I think Green will play better because the sheer increase in minutes at backup 4 and backup 3 will allow him to just play whereas before I think he was thinking about his game too much and how he should play.

Lee will probably benefit from the new style of play given his comment leaked a week ago regarding personal preference on that issue.  Inconsistent playing time had to be a concern of his too.

I could manufacture a reason for the rest of the gang, but I'd rather stick with those 4 because I think the reasons are pretty natural and evident to all who watch.

Tim, I've argued much with you about Rondo's offense.  If you think I believe this, I just want you to know that I don't argue that we are at our best with Rondo at our best over the past few years.  What I've been arguing in these threads is that Rondo has not been at his best this season.  When he's not at his best + has the ball in his hands at all times, I think that is the reason for our weak offense this year.  And I truly believe we'd see him at his best come playoff time, but not seeing that for the majority of the reg season is frustrating for someone who shells out several thousand $ a year in season tickets.
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Offline Fan from VT

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 08:48:15 AM »
I do think that Rondo was/is generally our second best player. However, he was wildly inconsistent; in some games (national TV, playoffs...something like 70% of his triple doubles are on national TV games, which account for less than 20% of his games, I believe) he can win it by himself, but the bulk of the time he is just kind of there. This becomes a problem because he is so ball-dominant, and Terry is much better with the ball than off the ball. THis doesn't mean he plays point, but for example when he was with Kidd, he would initiate pick and roll and have Kidd as an outlet to drain open threes, something Rondo cannot do. So with Rondo out, Terry gets to shoot more off the dribble than off the catch, which helps him. Then both Pierce and KG are well above average passers for their position, it's part of what makes them stand out. But when you have two very good passers in an offense that basically runs everything off of one primary passer, those skills become irrelevant/redundant.

Offline BballTim

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 08:51:13 AM »
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I'm not saying the celtics have never played well with rondo dominating the ball. Everything always looks better when everybody is hitting jumpshots.

  Likewise it's easier to his shots when you're getting easier looks at the basket.

I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.

Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 08:53:49 AM »
I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.
I'd be surprised if anyone on the team goes out to directly say we're better without Rondo. Not great for team-building. So they will give you the party line of how it's "not any one guy" and "everyone has to step up".

But to me at least it's kind of obvious that there are surprisingly many things that the team does better without Rondo.
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Offline scaryjerry

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Re: Thoroughly Confused.
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 08:55:34 AM »
I do think that Rondo was/is generally our second best player. However, he was wildly inconsistent; in some games (national TV, playoffs...something like 70% of his triple doubles are on national TV games, which account for less than 20% of his games, I believe) he can win it by himself, but the bulk of the time he is just kind of there. This becomes a problem because he is so ball-dominant, and Terry is much better with the ball than off the ball. THis doesn't mean he plays point, but for example when he was with Kidd, he would initiate pick and roll and have Kidd as an outlet to drain open threes, something Rondo cannot do. So with Rondo out, Terry gets to shoot more off the dribble than off the catch, which helps him. Then both Pierce and KG are well above average passers for their position, it's part of what makes them stand out. But when you have two very good passers in an offense that basically runs everything off of one primary passer, those skills become irrelevant/redundant.

Much of this on doc...and as far as Terry...kg isn't close to playing the pick and roll like Dirk...pretty sure you can't just blame it on rondo

 

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