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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2013, 06:13:39 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'm with you..I don't get the point of holding onto KG and pp just because. You stay just good enough to not get in the lottery but too bad to win anything? The worst place you can be in the nba.

The problem is if you are locked into a core of players who have you cemented on the treadmill of mediocrity for several years.  I'd argue that whether or not you hold onto Garnett and Pierce, the Celtics as currently structured are built to have this core intact through next season (or possibly one season after that).  That's when the team starts to have cap space and expiring contracts that can be used in a rebuilding process.  There is a natural built-in expiration date for this team.  Whether this team can reload or whether it has to clear the decks for a more long-term rebuilding project depends on Ainge and what is available.

One thing that could change that is if Pierce and Garnett both retire, but I expect them to believe that this team has a shot at contention next season.  Another thing that could change the plan is if Ainge can acquire a superstar worthy of a max-contract.
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2013, 06:22:30 PM »

Online BleedGreen1989

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I'm with you..I don't get the point of holding onto KG and pp just because. You stay just good enough to not get in the lottery but too bad to win anything? The worst place you can be in the nba.

The problem is if you are locked into a core of players who have you cemented on the treadmill of mediocrity for several years.  I'd argue that whether or not you hold onto Garnett and Pierce, the Celtics as currently structured are built to have this core intact through next season (or possibly one season after that).  That's when the team starts to have cap space and expiring contracts that can be used in a rebuilding process.  There is a natural built-in expiration date for this team.  Whether this team can reload or whether it has to clear the decks for a more long-term rebuilding project depends on Ainge and what is available.

One thing that could change that is if Pierce and Garnett both retire, but I expect them to believe that this team has a shot at contention next season.  Another thing that could change the plan is if Ainge can acquire a superstar worthy of a max-contract.

I actually agree with you about how this teams salary cap situation is but even afterwards everybody keeps saying go get a great free agent!

Who was the last very good player who signed in Boston?
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2013, 06:25:39 PM »

Offline Casperian

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Right. We've only been to the finals, and to a couple of EC finals. Peanuts.

If you can please explain how trading Garnett for the calcified remains of the player that was once Kendrick Perkins and a pile of, well, garbage helps us in the long or short term, be my guest.

No, I can´t, because you are right in saying that this specific trade idea isn´t good.

Doesn´t change the fact that keeping KG should be absolutely out of the question, since he can almost single-handedly keep us a good NBA team, good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win it all, which is rightly considered the worst place to be in this league.

You´re not winning a title in the NBA without top-talent, and usually, you´re not getting it in the middle of the draft. The whole point of the lottery is to give the best young players to the worst teams.

And no, it´s not peanuts. We´re just not winning a championship. What I was trying to get at was that you can´t simply use success from 5 years ago to extrapolate it to future success, which is the common train of thought in this kind of arguments.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 06:31:59 PM by Casperian »
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2013, 06:26:26 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Cap space means you can also trade for big salaries without having to match salaries.  It means you can take on a toxic contract in exchange for a likely lottery pick.
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2013, 06:28:03 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Gives us a chance to be competitive each year.

And makes the inevitable rebuilding process just a little bit harder for every year older KG gets, all for a team that was under .500 halfway through the season with both KG, Rondo and Sully healthy.
No, it doesn't. The trade with OKC (which I am specifically discussing here) does not put you any closer to rebuilding that holding on to Garnett does.

I'm all for rebuilding. But if your idea of "inevitable rebuilding process" is Perkins (paid a ton of money for the same amount of years as Garnett), Jeremy Lamb (who hasn't even shown he's an NBA player), and PJIII (who was red-flagged for his knee) then I'm just going to laugh at you.

And I've gone over this before with you, but it doesn't seem to sink in.  Whatever you may think of Perkins, Lamb and PJII, they're better than nothing.  3 years from now, a Celtic team with those 3 guys will be far more "competitive" than a team where KG has just retired and Boston has nothing more than some salary cap space.

Now, I frankly don't think the Thunder trade is really worth it, myself.  But what some folks apparently don't understand is that there is NO WAY that you can flip KG and/or Pierce for ANYTHING that's going to automatically maintain Boston at the level they've been the last 5 years.  No one's going to give you an all-star for them.  No one's going to give you a franchise young player.  No one is going to give you a lottery 1st rounder.  The best you're going to get for either of them is assets which can be used to make the team better in the future.

KG is not going to be playing 5 in Boston years from now.  He probably won't be playing 3 years from now and may not even be playing next year.  Do you want there to be something left behind when he's gone...or do you want the team to have nothing?

I don't have a problem, really, with anyone who just wants KG to retire as a Celtic and is willing to deal with the probable consequences of that.  Your apparent denial about those consequences and how they'll have to be dealt with is the only laughable thing in this thread.

Well, that and the McGee trade.

Mike

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2013, 06:31:03 PM »

Online saltlover

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I'm with you..I don't get the point of holding onto KG and pp just because. You stay just good enough to not get in the lottery but too bad to win anything? The worst place you can be in the nba.

The problem is if you are locked into a core of players who have you cemented on the treadmill of mediocrity for several years.  I'd argue that whether or not you hold onto Garnett and Pierce, the Celtics as currently structured are built to have this core intact through next season (or possibly one season after that).  That's when the team starts to have cap space and expiring contracts that can be used in a rebuilding process.  There is a natural built-in expiration date for this team.  Whether this team can reload or whether it has to clear the decks for a more long-term rebuilding project depends on Ainge and what is available.

One thing that could change that is if Pierce and Garnett both retire, but I expect them to believe that this team has a shot at contention next season.  Another thing that could change the plan is if Ainge can acquire a superstar worthy of a max-contract.

I actually agree with you about how this teams salary cap situation is but even afterwards everybody keeps saying go get a great free agent!

Who was the last very good player who signed in Boston?

David West sounded like he was on his way, but he required a sign-and-trade, and a trading partner couldn't be found in the lockout shortened offseason that year.

But thats the problem with sign and trades.  When was the last time the Celts had more than the mid-level to offer a free agent?

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2013, 06:38:02 PM »

Offline nostar

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Now, the premsise of the article is speculation on loose rumors. There is no news here, and there are no solid leads. This is speculation only, and idle speculation at that (I'm assuming idle speculation is the worst).

Andrew Han, ClipperBlog: Garnett, Avery Bradley to the Clippers for Eric Bledsoe, DeAndre Jordan and Trey Thompkins. Garnett's no-trade clause limits the Celtics' options mostly to Los Angeles; he owns a home in Malibu and is godfather to Chauncey Billups' daughter. Boston gets back a coveted player/athlete and turns one of their off-ball guards into a point guard, suddenly a position of need. Add an intriguing prospect in Thompkins and an athletic center in Jordan and the Celtics get young in a hurry.

Sean Highkin, Portland Roundball Soc.: Kevin Garnett to the Thunder for Kendrick Perkins, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III and Toronto's lottery-guaranteed first-rounder. Taking back Perkins' contract isn't ideal, but the Celtics load up on cheap, controllable, high-upside rookies and get a pick that could potentially be very high. From the Thunder's perspective, upgrading from Perk to KG would make it hard not to be considered title favorites.

Jack Winter, WarriorsWorld: Garnett and Fab Melo to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard, Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw. Leonard is one of the league's true blue-chip prospects, a great athlete with elite defensive potential, and Splitter has value, too. A small-picture view like this is against the Spurs' very fabric as an organization, but Garnett and Tim Duncan on the same frontline? If there was ever a reason to swing for the fences, this might be it.

I'm really glad at least some pundits still believe KG has value. Couple of things:

Not sure I part with Bradley to add Bledsoe. At best that is a lateral move. We also most likely won't give him enough playing time with Rondo healthy anyway. Nice trade chip but I'm not sure he's more valuable than Bradley. I'd take KG/Melo for Bledsoe/Jordon but that is the minimum I think.

The Thunder trade is my favorite because we get Perk back and 2 really interesting prospects. I personally think asking for Toronto's pick is too much but if they want to include it I'm game :)

I feel similarly about the Spurs trade as I do with the Clippers. I think Leonard is a great prospect, I think Splitter is proficient and could be a really solid center. Diaw is not an expiring so I'm less thrilled to get him but I don't take the Spurs seriously as trade partners. Duncan would line-item-veto a KG trade before it even got leaked.

KG to the Thunder makes then Champions for the next 3 years, health willing.

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2013, 06:38:14 PM »

Online Who

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The cap space is what I want.

Two extra years to try find quality talent with that cap room and/or the ability to collect additional assets by renting out cap space for picks/prospects from teams looking to offload bad contracts.

Plus, improved slots higher up in the draft. Likely in the 8-12 range rather than the 15-19 range.

Both are valuable routes to improve Boston's rebuilding efforts.

If someone will give up a couple of late picks or solid prospects on the top of that, that is just a bonus to me. It's not so much about the talent coming back directly from the trade as the increased flexibility to add talent further down the road via free agency or the draft.

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2013, 06:41:00 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And I've gone over this before with you, but it doesn't seem to sink in.  Whatever you may think of Perkins, Lamb and PJII, they're better than nothing.  3 years from now, a Celtic team with those 3 guys will be far more "competitive" than a team where KG has just retired and Boston has nothing more than some salary cap space.
That's because you somehow mistakently believe that those guys have any potential as NBA players 3 years from now.

As a matter of fact, I find all three will be out of the league by that time more likely than at least one of them being a reasonable NBA starter by the time when Garnett's contract expires.
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 06:42:14 PM »

Online manl_lui

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none, KG is the heart and soul of the Celtics with Pierce and Rondo...

no KG, Miami will love the free ride to the finals...

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 06:45:28 PM »

Offline Casperian

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You´re all acting like Theo Huxtable, trying to argue your way out of the realities of life.


What was that about outlandish, absolute statements?

You tell me. What was that?
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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 06:49:30 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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You´re all acting like Theo Huxtable, trying to argue your way out of the realities of life.


What was that about outlandish, absolute statements?

You tell me. What was that?


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Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 06:55:07 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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I don't understand, why would Chicago want anything to do with that deal? Are they so desperate for financial flexibility that they would consider this?

Taj Gibson is real solid, but Noah brings more. I don't get that idea for Chicago.


Similarly, why would SA want to move Leonard, who is essentially their answer to Kevin Durant for the next decade?  Splitter has proven to be a real commodity as well. Idle speculation indeed, my friend.
Yeah the Chicago one struck me most of all as being wild.

Not surprised by it though given the source, not a fan of his work.

I agree but Noah's injuries have to be a major concern.

Although Thibs would prob play KG 45 min a game until he literally broke

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 06:59:22 PM »

Offline eja117

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Now, the premsise of the article is speculation on loose rumors. There is no news here, and there are no solid leads. This is speculation only, and idle speculation at that (I'm assuming idle speculation is the worst).

Israel Gutierrez, ESPN.com: Garnett and Fab Melo to Chicago for Joakim Noah and Marco Belinelli. No trade at all is their best bet. The Celtics are unlikely to get anything close to equal value for Garnett, who's so vital to what Boston does and fits in so well with Rajon Rondo. And if there's any indication he won't play out the final two years of his deal, that's even less leverage for the Celtics. But if -- and this is a huge if -- they can get something significant for KG, I'd do this deal.

Andrew Han, ClipperBlog: Garnett, Avery Bradley to the Clippers for Eric Bledsoe, DeAndre Jordan and Trey Thompkins. Garnett's no-trade clause limits the Celtics' options mostly to Los Angeles; he owns a home in Malibu and is godfather to Chauncey Billups' daughter. Boston gets back a coveted player/athlete and turns one of their off-ball guards into a point guard, suddenly a position of need. Add an intriguing prospect in Thompkins and an athletic center in Jordan and the Celtics get young in a hurry.

Curtis Harris, Hardwood Paroxysm: Kevin Garnett to Nuggets for JaVale McGee. Going to Denver keeps KG on a playoff team that needs his defensive prowess in the interior. Meanwhile, Boston would get McGee, who may still blossom into a competent defensive force in his own right. And if it doesn't work, Boston can be woeful, get lottery picks and trade McGee's expiring deal in three seasons for future building blocks.

Sean Highkin, Portland Roundball Soc.: Kevin Garnett to the Thunder for Kendrick Perkins, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III and Toronto's lottery-guaranteed first-rounder. Taking back Perkins' contract isn't ideal, but the Celtics load up on cheap, controllable, high-upside rookies and get a pick that could potentially be very high. From the Thunder's perspective, upgrading from Perk to KG would make it hard not to be considered title favorites.

Jack Winter, WarriorsWorld: Garnett and Fab Melo to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard, Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw. Leonard is one of the league's true blue-chip prospects, a great athlete with elite defensive potential, and Splitter has value, too. A small-picture view like this is against the Spurs' very fabric as an organization, but Garnett and Tim Duncan on the same frontline? If there was ever a reason to swing for the fences, this might be it.

I'd put in a kidney if the thunder sent back Perkins, Lamb, Jones, and the Toronto pick.
with the exception of JaVale these are all too good to be true, which is why all except JaValle should be looked at

Re: ESPN's 5-on-5: What's the best Kevin Garnett trade the Celtics can make?
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2013, 07:08:28 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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And I've gone over this before with you, but it doesn't seem to sink in.  Whatever you may think of Perkins, Lamb and PJII, they're better than nothing.  3 years from now, a Celtic team with those 3 guys will be far more "competitive" than a team where KG has just retired and Boston has nothing more than some salary cap space.
That's because you somehow mistakently believe that those guys have any potential as NBA players 3 years from now.

As a matter of fact, I find all three will be out of the league by that time more likely than at least one of them being a reasonable NBA starter by the time when Garnett's contract expires.

That's the nature of rebuilding by trading for young assets.  Those young players might never become solid starters, but the odds are good that at least Lamb and the Toronto pick should. 

If the Cs could get Lamb, PJ3 and the Toronto pick, which could be #4, that is a good haul for Garnett.  (We disagree about Perk's value, and I don't feel like re-hashing that argument here). I'd prefer to keep AB out of the deal and send a useful third PG type like Barbosa their way.   

Assuming KG would agree to play for OKC, that trade should be a no brainer for the Thunder.  Adding KG's defensive presence and shooting touch to that line up makes them odds on favorites for the title the next two years. 

I'm a huge KG fan, but his team isn't winning the title this year, and probably not next.  It's time to make a move I prefer trading him to the Bulls for Gibson, Hamilton and Hinrich for salary ballast and stashed Euro Nikola Mirotic.  KG is re-united with Thibs in his second hometown, and Boston gets a big who can help immediately, in Gibson, and a possible top of the league future star in Mirotic in 2014. 

   

 

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