Author Topic: Rondo was slowing the team down?!  (Read 5869 times)

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2013, 08:36:17 AM »

Offline BballTim

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

I believe we are 5-1 right now without Rondo.

Three of those games have come against undisputed championship contenders - Miami, New York and the Clippers.

Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

1. Pierce is averaging 5 APG (1.0 above season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 2.5 APG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 2.6 APG (0.4 above season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 APG (2.0 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 2 APG (0.9 above season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 5 APG (2.6 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 3 APG (2.1 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 2.3 APG (1.0 above season avg)

Between all of those guys, that's a net total of 11.5 greater assists per game when Rondo is out.  Rondo was averaging 11.1 APG. 

1. Pierce is averaging 17.3 PPG (1.3 below season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 9 PPG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 13 PPG (1.8 below season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 PPG (2.6 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 7 PPG (0.9 below season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 12.3 PPG (2.2 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 15.3 PPG (5.4 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 11 APG (5.8 above season avg)

That's a net total of 13.5 PPG more from those guys when Rondo isn't here.  Rondo was averaging 13.7 PPG. 

What does all of this mean?

We get the same number of assists AND points regardless of whether Rondo is out there or not, the only difference is it's spread over the team rather than all coming from one guy - personally I'd say that's a good thing, because it suggets better ball movement from the team and that our offensive attack is coming in multiple different ways, from multiple threats.

Now, everybody loves to argue about how irreplacable Rondo's stats are, but the above (albiet small) sample proves otherwise.  His stats are completely replacable, because even if you simply delete him from the team (and do not bring any replacement in return) the other guys are clearly making up those numbers in his absense.

So, why are we paying $10M per year to a guy who gives us nothing that we don't already get?  Maybe we are better off letting him go in return for some guys who fill important voids such as rebounds or interior defense...or maybe let him go in return for $10M is cap space a year or two down the track.

Offensively our production doesn't really change with him, but defensively we are clearly better without him.  Net result is that we are better without him - assuming this current trend continues to hold up.

  Again, if you're confident that everyone you listed will play as well (or better) than that in a playoff series against a top defensive team when there are fewer transition opportunities then you're onto something. Is that the case?

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2013, 08:55:13 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

Is a three game sample -- including one game against the league's worst defense, another against the league's 21st rated defense, and a third game against a team missing it's star PG -- really meaningful?

I like the ball movement, but I think it's too early to say much.  As others have pointed out, the team played very well in 2008 without KG, as well.  Statistically, I'm sure we made up for a lot of his production.  That doesn't mean he was replaceable.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and make assessments after the playoffs.


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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2013, 09:15:46 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

Is a three game sample -- including one game against the league's worst defense, another against the league's 21st rated defense, and a third game against a team missing it's star PG -- really meaningful?

I like the ball movement, but I think it's too early to say much.  As others have pointed out, the team played very well in 2008 without KG, as well.  Statistically, I'm sure we made up for a lot of his production.  That doesn't mean he was replaceable.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and make assessments after the playoffs.
+1 to this.

I'm glad the team is playing better, but people are really getting ahead of themselves. Remember we put up a 6 game winning streak to dig ourselves out of a hole before, and then promptly fell on our faces again.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2013, 09:21:32 AM »

Offline snowball

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They look like a real basketball team
instead of a Rondo supporting cast.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2013, 09:11:47 PM »

Offline action781

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.
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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2013, 09:13:26 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.

BRADLEY AND LEE are going to the rim more, which is good!
Our inefficient defense ain't the long-range 2's which we're mad efficient at.
Threes.... Lee/Bradley/Green need more corner shots, Terry/Pierce from anywhere
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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2013, 01:53:19 PM »

Offline gar

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Article supporting the fact that Rondo was limiting other peoples touches which in my mind means that it is harder for other players to get into any kind of rhythm, hence the inconsistency and lack of production from players outside of the new big three.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4702036/grantland-are-cs-really-better

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2013, 02:12:46 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.

  I'll get back to this when I have more time but a) we haven't always been a bad offensive rebounding team and our drop in efficiency is directly related too our drop in ORebs and b) Rondo takes more shots at the rim than our starting center and pf combined.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2013, 03:10:49 PM »

Offline RyNye

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I also love how people are citing this Grantland article as if it is proof that the team plays better without Rondo. Even though, you know, the article doesn't say that, and in fact implies the exact opposite.

The truth is, over the past 4 seasons, while Rondo-Pierce-and Garnett have shared the floor, our offense has been top 10 in the league. The perennial problem with the Celtics has not been the Big 3, it has been our inability to get consistent bench production.

 

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