Author Topic: Rondo was slowing the team down?!  (Read 5530 times)

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2013, 11:46:15 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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rondo carried us on his back last year and the 2010 finals year.

i think it's what u meant

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2013, 11:46:59 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.

TP for the truth. 

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2013, 11:50:26 PM »

Offline danglertx

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2013, 11:55:01 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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"trade Paul and Kg"
"trade Lee and Avery"
"what can we get for Bass"

lol...after rondo went down we wanna blow it up..now we are better without rondo..if we had lost to the clips today i wonder what new "get rid of" thread would have been born

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2013, 11:59:15 PM »

Offline Clench123

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2013, 12:03:52 AM »

Online crimson_stallion

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I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Yeah, so you keep firing everybody around you 'best player' until you find a lineup that can actually work.

Or alternatively you simply remove your 'best player' and immediately start winning games.

Hmm...tough choice there! Change one player...change entire team. 

Let me help you. 

When EVERYBODY on the team plays better when a certain player is out, then that player is your problem...not everybody else around him.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2013, 12:11:04 AM »

Online crimson_stallion

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This whole blame Doc thing is so laughable...it's an absolute joke.

People need to stop trying to point the finger at everybody else to try to protect their favorite stat stuffer. 

The fact is Rondo leaves, everybody plays better, we start winning.

How on earth can you blame Doc - the same Doc who was also coaching us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

How can you blame the support players - the same support players who were also playing for us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

It's utterly rediculous because the reality is so blatantly obvious, and it's just so amusing to me that after all of this the Rondo fanboys are STILL in denial.

How many of us have been saying for how long that this team is better when Rondo isn't on the court?  How many times have we quoted our negative on/off numbers when he's playing?  How many times have we said that our players share the ball and get involved more when he's not there, because they aren't standing falling asleep while he holds the ball?

The Rondo lovers constantly mock these suggestions and throw out the "you wait and see how bad we are without him" and yet I'm waiting, and I'm not seeing.

We beat New York, a top three team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Miami, the top team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Clippers, a top three team in the league, without
Rondo.

Our overall record is now something like 5-1 without Rondo.

What more do the Rondo fanboys seriously need to see in order open your eyes and accept the reality.

Rondo is our most talented player, but we are a better TEAM when he's not here.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2013, 12:13:37 AM »

Online crimson_stallion

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2013, 12:22:59 AM »

Offline Clench123

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2013, 01:40:09 AM »

Online Mazingerz

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Some people tend to be shortsighted in terms of Rondo's meaning to this ball club. Rondo, Garnett, and Pierce have been together for quite a while and know each others movements.

It was the system designed by Doc that slowed the newcomers to the Celtics. Most of players acquired were freestyle players who do not want to be confined to a set play type of system.

I guess this is happening now where rondo is not around. When he comes back he needs to allow a little leeway for Lee, Barbosa, Green and Terry to thrive in. Doc's schemes are not suitable to the new look Celtic role players
Peavey Bass Player - relearning to play after 10 years sucks;

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2013, 06:44:32 AM »

Offline BballTim

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This whole blame Doc thing is so laughable...it's an absolute joke.

People need to stop trying to point the finger at everybody else to try to protect their favorite stat stuffer. 

The fact is Rondo leaves, everybody plays better, we start winning.

How on earth can you blame Doc - the same Doc who was also coaching us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

How can you blame the support players - the same support players who were also playing for us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

It's utterly rediculous because the reality is so blatantly obvious, and it's just so amusing to me that after all of this the Rondo fanboys are STILL in denial.

How many of us have been saying for how long that this team is better when Rondo isn't on the court?  How many times have we quoted our negative on/off numbers when he's playing?  How many times have we said that our players share the ball and get involved more when he's not there, because they aren't standing falling asleep while he holds the ball?

The Rondo lovers constantly mock these suggestions and throw out the "you wait and see how bad we are without him" and yet I'm waiting, and I'm not seeing.

We beat New York, a top three team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Miami, the top team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Clippers, a top three team in the league, without
Rondo.

Our overall record is now something like 5-1 without Rondo.

What more do the Rondo fanboys seriously need to see in order open your eyes and accept the reality.

Rondo is our most talented player, but we are a better TEAM when he's not here.

  Have you pre-ordered your 2013 ECF champs tee shirt yet?

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2013, 06:55:33 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Celts were playing better defense right now, the players on the court have been playing harder and with more focus than they have been for much of the year. I don't think the offense has been better. It's true that a lot of people are thrilled with our transition game (in spite of the fact that we aren't really scoring more points or converting our opportunities better) and they like our ball-movement offense despite our still struggling on offense but actual improvement would be nice.

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2013, 08:01:39 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

very funny stuff  :D

Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2013, 08:23:55 AM »

Online crimson_stallion

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frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

I believe we are 5-1 right now without Rondo.

Three of those games have come against undisputed championship contenders - Miami, New York and the Clippers.

Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

1. Pierce is averaging 5 APG (1.0 above season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 2.5 APG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 2.6 APG (0.4 above season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 APG (2.0 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 2 APG (0.9 above season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 5 APG (2.6 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 3 APG (2.1 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 2.3 APG (1.0 above season avg)

Between all of those guys, that's a net total of 11.5 greater assists per game when Rondo is out.  Rondo was averaging 11.1 APG. 

1. Pierce is averaging 17.3 PPG (1.3 below season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 9 PPG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 13 PPG (1.8 below season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 PPG (2.6 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 7 PPG (0.9 below season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 12.3 PPG (2.2 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 15.3 PPG (5.4 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 11 APG (5.8 above season avg)

That's a net total of 13.5 PPG more from those guys when Rondo isn't here.  Rondo was averaging 13.7 PPG. 

What does all of this mean?

We get the same number of assists AND points regardless of whether Rondo is out there or not, the only difference is it's spread over the team rather than all coming from one guy - personally I'd say that's a good thing, because it suggets better ball movement from the team and that our offensive attack is coming in multiple different ways, from multiple threats.

Now, everybody loves to argue about how irreplacable Rondo's stats are, but the above (albiet small) sample proves otherwise.  His stats are completely replacable, because even if you simply delete him from the team (and do not bring any replacement in return) the other guys are clearly making up those numbers in his absense.

So, why are we paying $10M per year to a guy who gives us nothing that we don't already get?  Maybe we are better off letting him go in return for some guys who fill important voids such as rebounds or interior defense...or maybe let him go in return for $10M is cap space a year or two down the track.

Offensively our production doesn't really change with him, but defensively we are clearly better without him.  Net result is that we are better without him - assuming this current trend continues to hold up.


Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2013, 08:33:11 AM »

Online crimson_stallion

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Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Celts were playing better defense right now, the players on the court have been playing harder and with more focus than they have been for much of the year. I don't think the offense has been better. It's true that a lot of people are thrilled with our transition game (in spite of the fact that we aren't really scoring more points or converting our opportunities better) and they like our ball-movement offense despite our still struggling on offense but actual improvement would be nice.

I wouldn't say peole are playing with more effort, I'd say they are playing with more energy.

I think that has a lot to do with the fact that they now have clear roles, or more importantly they actually HAVE roles.  It's not just "Get into position, stand and wait".  Everybody now gets a chance to run the offense, bring the ball up, try to create something.  It keeps the guys awake and sharp because they are involved in the game constantly - every time up 4 or 5 guys touch the ball, so you need to keep alert.

It's not easy to stay mentally alert and energetic when you aren't moving much, and guys couldn't move much before because they needed to be where Rondo directed them to be.

 

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