Author Topic: Rondo was slowing the team down?!  (Read 5246 times)

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Offline eugen

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 11:56:59 AM »
Rondo has talent for Harlem team, but Cs p;lay better without him
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 12:09:36 PM by eugen »

Offline MBunge

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 11:59:00 AM »
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

Offline celtics2

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 12:03:43 PM »
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

Offline BballTim

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 12:08:29 PM »
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 12:13:56 PM »
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.

Online scaryjerry

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 12:20:10 PM »
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 12:29:28 PM by scaryjerry »

Offline BballTim

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 12:22:20 PM »
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.

  So you're claiming that 1 above average transition possession a game accounts for the difference? Would we suddenly go from better than average to worse than average if we accounted for it?


Offline ThaPreacher

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 12:27:46 PM »
Sometimes your fast break doesn't work because the ball isn't advanced up the court, with all players running.  Rondo requires the ball on every break and every possession. The Rondoless Celtics have distributed the ball well on the break, and in the half court.  But rondo is a weapon as well. He certainly is a top tier guard.  Both sides make valid points.  ONE THING, I think we all agree, Rondo should not have the ball at the end of the game with time running down.  The pick and roll with KG is terrible.  Rondo cannot hit that shot, and a deep jumper from Kevin is not the way to go.  It has cost the Celtics at least 5-6 games this season. 
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Offline Celtics4ever

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 12:31:34 PM »
Only a handful of guys on this team can run with Rondo.   I think our guys let him do his thing sometimes and didn't run the floor save the few who could.

The reason fast breaks don't work well for us is that you have to start the break off the boards.   We are one of the worst rebounding teams.   It is hard to break without the ball.

Offline CelticsFan9

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 12:32:41 PM »
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

That's the problem.

We've got a VERY talented player in Rondo, no question. Is he a superstar and a franchise player?  In my opinion, no.  Can he get there?  Of course, if he puts in the work.

If we build around Rondo, we'll never be contenders unless he steps up his game.  We aren't going to build around KG and Pierce; they're on the tail end of their careers.  We aren't building around anyone else on the roster because none of them have superstar potential.

That's our problem.  We are stuck with a talented guy in Rondo as our franchise player, and unfortunately, we won't be able to win a chip with him as our best player.

If Danny feels the same as I do, he will blow it up, try to nab a stud in the draft, and see how he pans out.  He might even trade Rondo in the next year or two.  If the rook doesn't pan out, it's rinse and repeat.  That's how rebuilding works.  Sometimes it takes five years, ten years, heck, even 22 years.

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 12:34:49 PM »
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.

  So you're claiming that 1 above average transition possession a game accounts for the difference? Would we suddenly go from better than average to worse than average if we accounted for it?

I'm not making any claims, just laying the facts.

I personally don't care about the whole when in the shot clock we're shooting discussion, to me is meaningless. Teams have 24 seconds to put up a good shot, don't care much when that shot is taken.

I care more about the amount of time that is put to good use actually looking for a good shot.

But Rondo is just a player of extremes for me, he plays really fast during a stretch, then he goes through an excessively slow stretch. And it's unnecessary. Consistency on how he plays is the big problem, not his ability to perform as he should.

As I've mentioned through the past 5 or so years, one of my main problems with Rondo is the role he's been given, and not being satisfied how he performs under that role (and considering the role, he deserves a lot of praise, and a lot of the blame). I really think he would perform much better for us, and the team would perform better with him, under different circumstances. And as I've said plenty of times, really liked how he played during last year's playoffs through much of it... but it's irrelevant to his contribution to us so far this year.

Still it's maddening when a guy with his speed, which is his biggest asset, doesn't put it to appropriate use. It's maddening seeing his poor defensive effort. I could generally live with one of the two not being there game to game, but not the two, which happens too often.

Offline ThaPreacher

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2013, 12:43:20 PM »
Only a handful of guys on this team can run with Rondo.   I think our guys let him do his thing sometimes and didn't run the floor save the few who could.

The reason fast breaks don't work well for us is that you have to start the break off the boards.   We are one of the worst rebounding teams.   It is hard to break without the ball.

If you have 20 def rebounds you can run 20 times.  If you have 10 def rebounds you can run 10 times.  Green. Bradley. KG. Wilcox. Lee. Terry. Bass. Rondo can all run.   The problem is that rondo turns back, foul line and below to outlet.  Dribbling doesn't advance the ball as fast as passing. Rondo demands the ball.  The rise in the Celtic fast break points is similar to the offense.  Rondo is not dribbling.   Simple.  Why argue.

In a playoff series, the celtics will have difficulty, because they need Rondo to dribble.  They will have trouble getting into their offense without an elite ball handler.  Rondo is a tease, because he simply can't hit free throws so he doesn't want to penetrate. His jumper has improved, but yours would put more fear into the opposition.  Rondo is a Catch22. (Joseph Heller btw).  Which is why we are having this discussion....heh
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Offline wiley

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2013, 12:53:34 PM »
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

That's the problem.

We've got a VERY talented player in Rondo, no question. Is he a superstar and a franchise player?  In my opinion, no.  Can he get there?  Of course, if he puts in the work.

If we build around Rondo, we'll never be contenders unless he steps up his game.  We aren't going to build around KG and Pierce; they're on the tail end of their careers.  We aren't building around anyone else on the roster because none of them have superstar potential.

That's our problem.  We are stuck with a talented guy in Rondo as our franchise player, and unfortunately, we won't be able to win a chip with him as our best player.

If Danny feels the same as I do, he will blow it up, try to nab a stud in the draft, and see how he pans out.  He might even trade Rondo in the next year or two.  If the rook doesn't pan out, it's rinse and repeat.  That's how rebuilding works.  Sometimes it takes five years, ten years, heck, even 22 years.

I have to try and tackle the illogic of this post, as I have before when this argument is presented.  The problem is the use of the term "build around".  It's a mis-used term. 

Do you think Oklahoma City went out and got Russell Westbrook because they wanted a PG who would shoot a lower percentage than Durant and yet continue to shoot more than him despite it?  No.  They picked up Westbrook because he was a stud basketball player.  Is that "building around" Durant?  Or is it just adding as much talent as possible.  The answer is the latter.

NBA team building is about collecting as much talent as possible at each position, period.  Of course you can tweak things like defense, rebounding, and pure shooting abiilty, but you don't tweak it at the expense of overall talent.

If you look closely, what you and many others are saying is that Rondo sucks at being best.  Trust me, if he sucks that bad at being best we can find better.  And if a team like the Boston Celtics can't find better than Rondo, then it's time to give the guy props.  But the bottom line is that keeping Rondo is not going to prevent the Celtics from re-loading at other positions, especially at his current contract.

So, if you don't like Rondo as a PG, that's fine.  Get rid of him.  But don't argue that you can't build around him.  He'd have 3 rings without injuries to Garnett and Perk.  He's going to the hall of fame if he can get healthy.  Of course you can build around that.

Offline clover

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2013, 01:01:47 PM »
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.

Basketball is still a two-way game and I'd argue that KG is still hands down the most important cog in this team's wheel. Also, he certainly was a franchise player back when the C's acquired him.

Offline wiley

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Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2013, 01:07:26 PM »
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.

Basketball is still a two-way game and I'd argue that KG is still hands down the most important cog in this team's wheel. Also, he certainly was a franchise player back when the C's acquired him.

Yes.  Not sure who said KG is not a franchise type player.  KG is the definition of franchise player. 

 

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