Author Topic: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated  (Read 3203 times)

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Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 06:08:28 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Agree on Rondo, disagree on Doc.
[/quote

+ 1. 


Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 06:14:04 PM »

Offline BballTim

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but tell me how many teams over the last 5 years can claim something more impressive than 1 championship, 1 Finals Game 7 and 1 ECF Game 7. The Loaded Lakers from 07-10, that's about it.

And 1 of those 5 years Doc lost KG for the season. 

Doc isn't overrated.

Ok, 2009 was the main outlying data point, as both KG and Powe were out for the postseason. That pretty much eliminated our interior game and the final demise was expected.

However, the 2008 Laker's team was composed of Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, Radmanovic, Turiaf. Both Bynum and Ariza were injured and the bench had just slightly above average players like Farmar, Walton, Vujacic, etc. Aside from Kobe ball, that team does not compare to a bench of Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supporting a superior starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. All and all, with Riley or Jackson coaching the C's, that series would have been over 4-1. KobeBall, at most, beats the Celts for one game, game 3. Afterwards, they wouldn't have made a huge run in game 4, thus, the greatest comeback would have been perhaps, a down by 10-12 contest, followed by an easy Celtics rout in Q3 and Q4.

  The only backup for the Celts that played really well in the playoffs was Posey. Brown wasn't that good and the other guys pretty much took turns playing their way out of the rotation.

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 06:21:07 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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If in-game decision making were the only variable used to determine a coach's value, then perhaps Doc could be deemed overrated (though I am not sure anyone sees that as his strength -- other than plays off of TOs).   

Doc appears to have engendered a great deal of respect and loyalty from the people who know a lot more about the NBA than I do.  Players, owners, Danny, etc -- those who work with Doc on all those days and hours that the team is not on the court in NBA games -- seem to think he is a special coach and person.  Does that translate into wins?  I guess not always, but tell me how many teams over the last 5 years can claim something more impressive than 1 championship, 1 Finals Game 7 and 1 ECF Game 7. The Loaded Lakers from 07-10, that's about it.

And 1 of those 5 years Doc lost KG for the season. 

Doc isn't overrated.

Disagreed immediately upon that premise.

Not the most thoughtful response I've ever seen.

Good coaches do not always get the most wins in regular seasons.  In fact I'd rather win playoff games as Doc has been pretty good at doing.  Seems to me that the NY Giants were 9-7 in the regular season last year.  Many think Coughlin a good coach.


Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 06:23:51 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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but tell me how many teams over the last 5 years can claim something more impressive than 1 championship, 1 Finals Game 7 and 1 ECF Game 7. The Loaded Lakers from 07-10, that's about it.

And 1 of those 5 years Doc lost KG for the season. 

Doc isn't overrated.

Ok, 2009 was the main outlying data point, as both KG and Powe were out for the postseason. That pretty much eliminated our interior game and the final demise was expected.

However, the 2008 Laker's team was composed of Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, Radmanovic, Turiaf. Both Bynum and Ariza were injured and the bench had just slightly above average players like Farmar, Walton, Vujacic, etc. Aside from Kobe ball, that team does not compare to a bench of Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supporting a superior starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. All and all, with Riley or Jackson coaching the C's, that series would have been over 4-1. KobeBall, at most, beats the Celts for one game, game 3. Afterwards, they wouldn't have made a huge run in game 4, thus, the greatest comeback would have been perhaps, a down by 10-12 contest, followed by an easy Celtics rout in Q3 and Q4.

You bring up 2 HOF caliber coaches to compare to Doc who you say is overrated. If your point is that Doc is not as good a coach as Riley or Jackson, I would agree.  I've never (nor have I heard ANYONE EVER) suggest Doc is a HOF coach. Now if you were to say that Mike D'Antoni or Mike Brown would have beat the C's 4-1 that would make a better point.

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 08:41:18 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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However, the 2008 Laker's team was composed of Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, Radmanovic, Turiaf. Both Bynum and Ariza were injured and the bench had just slightly above average players like Farmar, Walton, Vujacic, etc. Aside from Kobe ball, that team does not compare to a bench of Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supporting a superior starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. All and all, with Riley or Jackson coaching the C's, that series would have been over 4-1. KobeBall, at most, beats the Celts for one game, game 3. Afterwards, they wouldn't have made a huge run in game 4, thus, the greatest comeback would have been perhaps, a down by 10-12 contest, followed by an easy Celtics rout in Q3 and Q4.

You bring up 2 HOF caliber coaches to compare to Doc who you say is overrated. If your point is that Doc is not as good a coach as Riley or Jackson, I would agree.  I've never (nor have I heard ANYONE EVER) suggest Doc is a HOF coach. Now if you were to say that Mike D'Antoni or Mike Brown would have beat the C's 4-1 that would make a better point.

Ok, in the spirit of fairness, I didn't bring up Riley/Jackson to make a direct comparison to Doc, vis-a-vis a sub-par coach like Mike Brown. I'd brought up Riley/Jackson, to highlight the fact that the 2008 title team was in fact, a highly talent squad, pretty much across the board.

Where I'd make a more one-to-one mapping is to let's say KC Jones, where in fact, KC rode on his starting five, possible the best starting 5 [next to the early 70s Knicks w/ Monroe] for most the minutes of the game, with the idea that if fatigue didn't set in, then the Celts would generally win. Well, Riley understood that principle and put in his fastest guys, in various rotations, to wear out all the Celts' legs. What happened was that Riley played chess with KC; he knew perfectly well that a strong C's starting 5 could easily beat the Lakers, if they slowed down the pace, and kept their legs fresh for the final rounds. It was a chess match which Riley knew how to play. KC, however, was always fighting father time, and as a result, has similar limitations as Doc. Today, Doc can't fall back on KC-isms because for the most part, his bench isn't Kite, Thirdkill, or Carlisle. Doc's able to take a few more risks, without falling into a huge hole. Doc's bench has a lot more room to maneuver.

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 09:31:27 PM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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If in-game decision making were the only variable used to determine a coach's value, then perhaps Doc could be deemed overrated (though I am not sure anyone sees that as his strength -- other than plays off of TOs).   

Doc appears to have engendered a great deal of respect and loyalty from the people who know a lot more about the NBA than I do.  Players, owners, Danny, etc -- those who work with Doc on all those days and hours that the team is not on the court in NBA games -- seem to think he is a special coach and person.  Does that translate into wins?  I guess not always, but tell me how many teams over the last 5 years can claim something more impressive than 1 championship, 1 Finals Game 7 and 1 ECF Game 7. The Loaded Lakers from 07-10, that's about it.

And 1 of those 5 years Doc lost KG for the season. 

Doc isn't overrated.

Disagreed immediately upon that premise.

Not the most thoughtful response I've ever seen.

Good coaches do not always get the most wins in regular seasons.  In fact I'd rather win playoff games as Doc has been pretty good at doing.  Seems to me that the NY Giants were 9-7 in the regular season last year.  Many think Coughlin a good coach.

Sorry, I was too busy to say my point...

Anyways, the comparison to NFL is irrelevant and very inaccurate to the NBA playoffs. Its too different how its formed and played out, as there actually can never be a high chance for favorites to win it all. A better comparison would be the NHL or maybe Euro/China B-Ball leagues.

Wins in a season do matter to win it all:
1) HCA (we really needed the Garden in Game 7 of 2010 :( )
2) Standings (we dont wanna be 7/8th and face Miami/Knicks, it'll wear us out too early)
3) Rest (If you accomplish to get enough wins early to get a permanent spot in the standings, then you can rest up your starters, instead of scrambling to get into the playoffs)
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 09:39:33 PM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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Agree on Rondo, disagree on Doc.

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 09:41:02 PM »

Offline eugen

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Rondo can not be a leader and most important player of the team. Cs should trade him for a big center.

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 09:44:12 PM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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Rondo can not be a leader and most important player of the team. Cs should trade him for a big center.

Agreed. Also, user SHAQATTACK just said the same thing... CelticNation is thinking straight now ;D
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 09:58:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Doc is an outstanding coach.

He's made some questionable decisions at times this year, but it's also hard when very few players on the team seemed to be playing right, and with so many people adjusting to new roles.

Looking at how well Doc has done in the past dealing with teams that have lacked talent, managing minutes for the older players and also managing injuries, he's been as good a coach as any in this league - Jackson and Pop included.

Every season after 2008 Doc has been put in difficult scenarios, but in every one of those season's he has kept the team competitive.  Even 2008 would not have been an easy season to coach by any means - trying to get three superstars to leave their Ego's at the door and work together, while also trying to get those guys to respect younger guys like Rondo and Perkins?  That's no easy task.

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 10:39:46 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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overall Doc is a good coach........his weakness is trusting in Rondo to control too much of the game.

Clippers suck without CP3
Celtics play better without Rondo

Give the Celtics CP3 and the Celtics bring home banner 18

CP3.   is the leader of the Clips, with out Paul , the Clippers coach is history..........he lucked out

think how amazing Doc would seem with C P3 guiding the team

it is clear why DA wanted to trade Rondo for CP3.........failed :'(

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 09:34:07 PM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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overall Doc is a good coach........his weakness is trusting in Rondo to control too much of the game.

Clippers suck without CP3
Celtics play better without Rondo

Give the Celtics CP3 and the Celtics bring home banner 18

CP3.   is the leader of the Clips, with out Paul , the Clippers coach is history..........he lucked out

think how amazing Doc would seem with C P3 guiding the team

it is clear why DA wanted to trade Rondo for CP3.........failed :'(

TP
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2013, 08:46:01 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Rondo is not over rated....he is just used, coached wrong....anytime you allow your players to do as they wish...you are not managing them......rondo is great, has invented more passes than anyone.....he just needs to be told to move it up the floor faster...change it up...pass it up sometimes.....keep 'em guessing....play off the ball...play him with more up-tempo guys too.....management....

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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Rondo is not over rated....he is just used, coached wrong....anytime you allow your players to do as they wish...you are not managing them......rondo is great, has invented more passes than anyone.....he just needs to be told to move it up the floor faster...change it up...pass it up sometimes.....keep 'em guessing....play off the ball...play him with more up-tempo guys too.....management....

So you're saying Doc is more 'blamable' than Rajon?
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Both Doc and Rondo are overrated
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2013, 10:57:53 AM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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but tell me how many teams over the last 5 years can claim something more impressive than 1 championship, 1 Finals Game 7 and 1 ECF Game 7. The Loaded Lakers from 07-10, that's about it.

And 1 of those 5 years Doc lost KG for the season. 

Doc isn't overrated.

Ok, 2009 was the main outlying data point, as both KG and Powe were out for the postseason. That pretty much eliminated our interior game and the final demise was expected.

However, the 2008 Laker's team was composed of Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, Radmanovic, Turiaf. Both Bynum and Ariza were injured and the bench had just slightly above average players like Farmar, Walton, Vujacic, etc. Aside from Kobe ball, that team does not compare to a bench of Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supporting a superior starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. All and all, with Riley or Jackson coaching the C's, that series would have been over 4-1. KobeBall, at most, beats the Celts for one game, game 3. Afterwards, they wouldn't have made a huge run in game 4, thus, the greatest comeback would have been perhaps, a down by 10-12 contest, followed by an easy Celtics rout in Q3 and Q4.

  The only backup for the Celts that played really well in the playoffs was Posey. Brown wasn't that good and the other guys pretty much took turns playing their way out of the rotation.

House???
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

 

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