Author Topic: So Ray was not the problem...  (Read 1479 times)

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Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 03:17:36 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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[Edited.]  Comments like this are inappropriate. -RH
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 04:05:58 PM by Roy H. »

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Ray did great on the offensive end but he was not a solid defender.   His defense killed us last year, I realize he was hurt.

I tempered last night game with the fact it was the Magic.  They are horrible, Moore could not even break into the rotation here folks.

When I recall the playoffs of the last years, I concur we would have got nowhere without Rondo.   He had some superhuman games that won us series.

Quote
The issue with the Rondo style of play is that Rajon gets his assists but it is usually at the expense of ball movement. He dominates the ball and does not give it up until very late in the shot clock so that the recepient of his pass seldom has a chance to make another pass. This creates stagnation on offense, and helps the defense because when a defendant knows the defense knows that your only option is a shot two things happen your man goes all in to challenge your shot because he knows you are not passing, and the rest of the defense crashes the board because they dont have to even think about defending the entry pass - in short the defense is given an easy job and the offense looks ****ty.

Assists are made buckets.   The team that makes the most buckets and scores the most wins.   This ball movement crap is obviously from someone who never played anything but elementary basketball.  ( just waiting for the I played div II lie to come).   If your scoring it's good, period.   There is only a 24 second shot clock.   I could point out all the shot clock violations during the Rondo era, and make you a bigger fool.   But they happened all the time for us so much for the quick scoring options.

I don't think this is on Rondo.   I think the other guys relied on him too much.  They let him set him up because he is so good at it.  So it was they who got lazy, they don't have a choice now.

Good as Rondo is , and he is the best player on this team.   We have not truly seen what he can do folks.   If he had five guys who could run, then I think he would be even better.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 03:32:49 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Ray did great on the offensive end but he was not a solid defender.   His defense killed us last year, I realize he was hurt.

I tempered last night game with the fact it was the Magic.  They are horrible, Moore could not even break into the rotation here folks.

When I recall the playoffs of the last years, I concur we would have got nowhere without Rondo.   He had some superhuman games that won us series.

Quote
The issue with the Rondo style of play is that Rajon gets his assists but it is usually at the expense of ball movement. He dominates the ball and does not give it up until very late in the shot clock so that the recepient of his pass seldom has a chance to make another pass. This creates stagnation on offense, and helps the defense because when a defendant knows the defense knows that your only option is a shot two things happen your man goes all in to challenge your shot because he knows you are not passing, and the rest of the defense crashes the board because they dont have to even think about defending the entry pass - in short the defense is given an easy job and the offense looks ****ty.

Assists are made buckets.   The team that makes the most buckets and scores the most wins.   This ball movement crap is obviously from someone who never played anything but elementary basketball.  ( just waiting for the I played div II lie to come).   If your scoring it's good, period.   There is only a 24 second shot clock.   I could point out all the shot clock violations during the Rondo era, and make you a bigger fool.   But they happened all the time for us so much for the quick scoring options.

I don't think this is on Rondo.   I think the other guys relied on him too much.  They let him set him up because he is so good at it.  So it was they who got lazy, they don't have a choice now.

Good as Rondo is , and he is the best player on this team.   We have not truly seen what he can do folks.   If he had five guys who could run, then I think he would be even better.

whether it is all Rondo or Roondo's style making the other players lazy, the bottom line is we are playing better without OUR BEST PLAYER.

THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2013, 03:46:06 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Yesterday we had 30 assists without Rondo - it was our 3rd highest assist total of the season (highest I think was 33, not far off).

Everybody who played bar Collins and Fab had at least 1 assist.  Barbosa and Terry each had 5. Green had 3 or 4, Pierce I think had 7, kg had around 4 or so.

I recently read that all season we've averaged 23 APG with Rondo and about 20 without him.  Not a big discrepancy at all.

What does this tell us?  That Rondo's assist impact is less important than people think.  Clearly when he's not playing other guys emerge as playmakers, and the spread of assists is improved.  This tells us were getting more ball movement and our offense is less predictable.

Rondo is a great player and yes, a great PG...but he gets his numbers by dominating the balland hence at the expense of others.  He rarely looks to be aggressive offensively so its easier for teams to keep a body on everybody else, knowing Rondo's plan is to pass off to a teammate.  With Rondo out we have so many playmakers that we are difficult to defend

Pierce in many ways is a more deadly playmaker than Rondo IMHO because he can setup with the intention of creating a play, but if the play doesn't go to plan he's also our best offensive player and create his own shot.  When Pierce is the Point-Forward what do you defend against - the Pass or the Shot? 

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2013, 03:47:59 PM »

Offline wiley

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Yawn ..I never thought there was a problem on the court..the rondo/Ray backcourt era was always good but fans will always complain...their eventual clashing egos and rondo wanting Avery to start was the problem...because there was a lot less pounding then...when Avery came back this year and it was he and rondo...we went on our longest win streak of the season..Bradley got banged up again and rondo subsequently went out for the year.

You're putting to much on a few games and also not putting it on docs head where it belongs...he's adjusted nicely but with a complete roster was a disaster...he's the one played rondo the most minutes in the league and coached him up to play that way.

Yup.  Rondo was playing too many minutes for a slight framed guard with an all out style who's gone deep into the playoffs year after year after year...
I'd been worried about his minutes and I think lots of the attacks against Rondo were a result of his being tired and playing through minor injuries.  It's a tough, macho league but the Celtics weren't smart with their star guard imo.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2013, 03:48:43 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

Indeed its pathetic...all the rondo detractors are officially out of the woodwork

The silver lining is at least the haters have officially outed themselves, and now I can know for certain who the no-nothing knuckleheads are.

If we are a 4th or 5th seed without Rondo by the end of the season, will you admit you are wrong?  Or will you continue to make excuses to defend our star PG?

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Also guys need to stop blaming Doc for Rondo's play style.

Rondo wasn't this bad in prior years, and I'm sure Doc hasn't suddenly pushed him to change.  Doc ALWAYS preaches ball movement in every timeout, and he always says he wants Rondo to attack more, push on the break more, and be more aggressive offensively.

Rondo does what he wants, and Doc's only mistake is not reprimanding him for it.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2013, 03:56:10 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

Indeed its pathetic...all the rondo detractors are officially out of the woodwork

The silver lining is at least the haters have officially outed themselves, and now I can know for certain who the no-nothing knuckleheads are.

If we are a 4th or 5th seed without Rondo by the end of the season, will you admit you are wrong?  Or will you continue to make excuses to defend our star PG?

Wrong about what?  That the other players on the team bear responsibility for their own level of play?

It is not Rondo's fault the rest of the team was playing like a bunch of sand bagging idiots far too often.  I find it sad that it seems it took our best player going down for the rest of the team to realize it's time for them to step up.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2013, 03:59:28 PM »

Offline BenHenry

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Wow cant believe we have a few fans here hoping our Celts would lose just to prove the value of Rondo. You guys should head over to the Heats' bandwagon cuz this is embarrassing.

What about all those arguments that this team can't go anywhere without Garnett? KG even at this age is still by far the most valuable and has the most impact on our chances of winning.

Or our Captain? Who can still put up 30 on any given night and draws fouls right up there with the best in the league. The Truth is still clutch.

Guess some fans here don't realize this is a team game or they must really hate Ubuntu.

The silver lining in this is now the bandwagon fans are all coming out of the woodworks and now we know who the Celtics haters are.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2013, 04:03:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Yesterday we had 30 assists without Rondo - it was our 3rd highest assist total of the season (highest I think was 33, not far off).

Everybody who played bar Collins and Fab had at least 1 assist.  Barbosa and Terry each had 5. Green had 3 or 4, Pierce I think had 7, kg had around 4 or so.

I recently read that all season we've averaged 23 APG with Rondo and about 20 without him.  Not a big discrepancy at all.

  For reference, we make on average 37 baskets a game. 23/37 is an assist% of 62.2%, which would be 5th in the league. 20/37 is 54%, which would be 29th in the league.

What does this tell us?  That Rondo's assist impact is less important than people think.  Clearly when he's not playing other guys emerge as playmakers, and the spread of assists is improved.  This tells us were getting more ball movement and our offense is less predictable.

Rondo is a great player and yes, a great PG...but he gets his numbers by dominating the balland hence at the expense of others.  He rarely looks to be aggressive offensively so its easier for teams to keep a body on everybody else, knowing Rondo's plan is to pass off to a teammate.  With Rondo out we have so many playmakers that we are difficult to defend

  While you're listing reasons that our offense has blossomed with Rondo out you need to keep in mind that it hasn't. 2 of the 3 teams we've played without him were against bottom 6 defenses and our offensive rating hasn't improved one iota.

Pierce in many ways is a more deadly playmaker than Rondo IMHO because he can setup with the intention of creating a play, but if the play doesn't go to plan he's also our best offensive player and create his own shot.  When Pierce is the Point-Forward what do you defend against - the Pass or the Shot?

  People generally play the shot. But in any case look at our games last year when Rondo was out and PP was playing point forward about as well as you'd ever expect him to. Our offense was worse in those games than it had been with Rondo playing.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2013, 04:03:53 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I'm going to make a promise to myself to be done with this whole debate about whether or not the Celtics problems have been Rondo's fault or not.  It's absurd and aggrivating.

I still want the best for the TEAM, and hope that they do go on to win the title.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2013, 04:10:49 PM »

Offline cman88

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I love Rondo, dont get me wrong...but this team plays better when the ball moves around and we generate open looks.

I absolutely HATE the "rondo walk up the court and pound the ball into the ground while guys stand around/run through screens"

We CAN/COULD play the way we are playing now with Rondo...and we would be a better team than we are now. the problem is we didn't and unfortunately it took Rondo getting injured for Doc to finally just let guys play the way they have in the past.

we have alot of guys who flourish with the ball in their hands. BUT doc tried to fit a square peg into a round hole and use them without the ball in their hands.

its no surprise to me that Jason Terry has been looking like the guy he was in dallas lately...because he's handling the ball and running pick and rolls..Thats who he is! he's not Ray allen...yet we decided to play him like that.

Green is someone else who flourishes with the ball in his hand, who uses his speed in transition..he's not best used standing in the 3 point line waiting for a pass....same with Courtney Lee

are we a better team without Rondo?? absolutely not. but offensively the system needs to change to allow for more ballhandeling from our other guards.

We will miss Rondo in the playoffs, BUT I still give the team a fighting chance. you still have guys like Pierce/KG/Terry who can hit the big shots and produce offense when it is needed.


Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2013, 04:18:24 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

Indeed its pathetic...all the rondo detractors are officially out of the woodwork

The silver lining is at least the haters have officially outed themselves, and now I can know for certain who the no-nothing knuckleheads are.

If we are a 4th or 5th seed without Rondo by the end of the season, will you admit you are wrong?  Or will you continue to make excuses to defend our star PG?

  If we get through the season without any more big injuries and get up to 4th or 5th seed I'd say that if they really are a better team they should be able to show it in the playoffs. We were 4th or 5th seed last year with Rondo in spite of depth issues, a healthier team getting to the same position he led them to last year isn't proof of anything.

 

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