Author Topic: So Ray was not the problem...  (Read 1403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

So Ray was not the problem...
« on: February 02, 2013, 01:32:54 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Tommy Points: 105
It was a lot of fun watching the Larry Bird led Celtics and the showtime flakers. The passing on those teams was infectious, and that made the games exciting to watch. Magic Johnson racked up assists but it was all within the flow of the running game, and whoever ran with him was rewarded especially the big men. He made it fun to run with him, and this translated into aggressive defense to spur the fast break. On the Walton Celtic team, Bird and Walton would have a friendly wagers on which of them would have the most spectacular pass in a game, and these were both frontline guys and not pont guards. This attitude encouraged ball movement, team unity, and it translated into good basketball and wins.

The issue with the Rondo style of play is that Rajon gets his assists but it is usually at the expense of ball movement. He dominates the ball and does not give it up until very late in the shot clock so that the recepient of his pass seldom has a chance to make another pass. This creates stagnation on offense, and helps the defense because when a defendant knows the defense knows that your only option is a shot two things happen your man goes all in to challenge your shot because he knows you are not passing, and the rest of the defense crashes the board because they dont have to even think about defending the entry pass - in short the defense is given an easy job and the offense looks ****ty.

Since we keep stats on assists - and I believe those stats have been watered down because I dont see why a low percentage made basket off a pass should be given an assist - I think we should also track how many passes result in missed shots, just to see who is giving efficient passes.

We blamed Ray Allen that he stagnated the Boston offense because Rondo had to hold the ball until Ray could spring free from multiple screens, but Ray is gone now and Rondo before his injury was still pounding the ball. With hindsight it appears Ray was not really the problem.

The question left is Rondo is young, we know Rondo can run, so why did he play the slow down pound the ball system?


Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2013, 01:45:47 PM »

Offline lightspeed5

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4111
  • Tommy Points: 283
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2013, 02:07:27 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
  • Tommy Points: 72
Yawn ..I never thought there was a problem on the court..the rondo/Ray backcourt era was always good but fans will always complain...their eventual clashing egos and rondo wanting Avery to start was the problem...because there was a lot less pounding then...when Avery came back this year and it was he and rondo...we went on our longest win streak of the season..Bradley got banged up again and rondo subsequently went out for the year.

You're putting to much on a few games and also not putting it on docs head where it belongs...he's adjusted nicely but with a complete roster was a disaster...he's the one played rondo the most minutes in the league and coached him up to play that way.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2013, 02:12:00 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Tommy Points: 105
Yawn ..I never thought there was a problem on the court..the rondo/Ray backcourt era was always good but fans will always complain...their eventual clashing egos and rondo wanting Avery to start was the problem...because there was a lot less pounding then...when Avery came back this year and it was he and rondo...we went on our longest win streak of the season..Bradley got banged up again and rondo subsequently went out for the year.

You're putting to much on a few games and also not putting it on docs head where it belongs...he's adjusted nicely but with a complete roster was a disaster...he's the one played rondo the most minutes in the league and coached him up to play that way.

you must have missed my post on the 'who said Doc is not a great coach' thread. I specifically called out Doc, but you can also see the question at the end of this post is why does Rondo pound the ball when we know he can run with the best of them?

Ans = Doc??

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2013, 02:18:27 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3451
  • Tommy Points: 190
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

what?????????????  Last I checked it was a team sport. What about the bench with nate and BBD helping us come from behind to win games in that series? What about the help from Sheed? Perk? before he went down?

While rondo had a great game 2 last year when did he take over and dominate a game and win it for us like Lebron did in game 6?

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2013, 02:20:52 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
  • Tommy Points: 72
I think its possible the team woke up and started listening to doc more and playing harder when rondo went out and were all happily coasting expecting rondo to carry them most nights through the first half of the season which proved difficult with nagging injuries/no Avery..there is now a sense of urgency against the garbage kings and magic when before there was not...I also strongly believe rondo has his best game of the season in the Sunday national TV game against the heat and we win in regulation had he been healthy, and possibly don't gag away the hawks game where he played on a torn acl...but I guess we'll never know now will we

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2013, 02:25:57 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
  • Tommy Points: 72
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

what?????????????  Last I checked it was a team sport. What about the bench with nate and BBD helping us come from behind to win games in that series? What about the help from Sheed? Perk? before he went down?

While rondo had a great game 2 last year when did he take over and dominate a game and win it for us like Lebron did in game 6?


2010 against the favored cavs when he was by far and away the best player in a series against Lebron and had a legendary game in there and singlehandedly carried us to a game 4 win with 29/13/18

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2013, 02:28:33 PM »

Offline Clench123

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1208
  • Tommy Points: 117
Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 02:33:21 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3451
  • Tommy Points: 190
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

what?????????????  Last I checked it was a team sport. What about the bench with nate and BBD helping us come from behind to win games in that series? What about the help from Sheed? Perk? before he went down?

While rondo had a great game 2 last year when did he take over and dominate a game and win it for us like Lebron did in game 6?


2010 against the favored cavs when he was by far and away the best player in a series against Lebron and had a legendary game in there and singlehandedly carried us to a game 4 win with 29/13/18

he is talking finals 2010 and last year. he never mentioned the cavs series. either way it still is a team game. I am waiting for someone to tell me BBD and nate did not help that series. we would have not even made a game 7 if not for them.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2013, 02:33:41 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
  • Tommy Points: 72
Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

Indeed its pathetic...all the rondo detractors are officially out of the woodwork

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2013, 02:35:38 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3451
  • Tommy Points: 190
Anybody else expecting these Rondo hate and blame thread after we won that Miami game?

People are ridiculous with it.  It's a complete delusion to think we'll get anywhere without Rondo.

Reality hasn't hit yet.  Wait for it...

and you think doc is a great offensive coach because he can cheer lead?  ::)

Everything is laid out in the thread you started.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2013, 02:37:04 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
  • Tommy Points: 72
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

what?????????????  Last I checked it was a team sport. What about the bench with nate and BBD helping us come from behind to win games in that series? What about the help from Sheed? Perk? before he went down?

While rondo had a great game 2 last year when did he take over and dominate a game and win it for us like Lebron did in game 6?


2010 against the favored cavs when he was by far and away the best player in a series against Lebron and had a legendary game in there and singlehandedly carried us to a game 4 win with 29/13/18



he is talking finals 2010 and last year. he never mentioned the cavs series. either way it still is a team game. I am waiting for someone to tell me BBD and nate did not help that series. we would have not even made a game 7 if not for them.

 

He had glimpses of being the best player in both those series and had we won the finals I think he gets the MVP...obviously its a team game and I remember the Shrek and donkey game...I also remember kg being awful much of the series and IMO the reason we lost game 7, not rondo

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »

Online BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22172
  • Tommy Points: 1012
The issue with the Rondo style of play is that Rajon gets his assists but it is usually at the expense of ball movement. He dominates the ball and does not give it up until very late in the shot clock so that the recepient of his pass seldom has a chance to make another pass. This creates stagnation on offense, and helps the defense because when a defendant knows the defense knows that your only option is a shot two things happen your man goes all in to challenge your shot because he knows you are not passing, and the rest of the defense crashes the board because they dont have to even think about defending the entry pass - in short the defense is given an easy job and the offense looks ****ty.

  People say both of these things a lot, but there isn't a lot of evidence to back them up. We don't take a higher percentage of our shots at the end of the shot clock than other teams, in fact I think we take less of our shots late in the shot clock than average. Also, the fact that we're supposedly very easy to defend, we still normally have a good TS%, and that number tends to be higher when Rondo's controlling things and racking up the assists.

Since we keep stats on assists - and I believe those stats have been watered down because I dont see why a low percentage made basket off a pass should be given an assist - I think we should also track how many passes result in missed shots, just to see who is giving efficient passes.

  Some Wizards fan wanted to compare Wall's passing to Rondo's so last march he looked at all of Rondo's passes that led to a scoring chance and compared how many times we scored to how many times we either missed the shot or turned the ball over. We were converting on about 55% of the Rondo-created chances compared to about 35% on all other chances. He claimed (from an 82games article) that the increase that comes from an assist should be 8% or so, so Rondo's increase was about 2.5 times higher than normal.

We blamed Ray Allen that he stagnated the Boston offense because Rondo had to hold the ball until Ray could spring free from multiple screens, but Ray is gone now and Rondo before his injury was still pounding the ball. With hindsight it appears Ray was not really the problem.

  We play at a faster pace than last year (although not incredibly faster) so that may be correct. We also take slightly fewer shots at the end of the shot clock now. Those points could be Ray related.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2013, 02:43:04 PM »

Online BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22172
  • Tommy Points: 1012
rondo got us to game 7 against the heat in the ECF and the 2010 NBA finals game 7. rondo averages a triple double in the playoffs. rondo carries the team on his back when we needed it.

in the playoffs against the heat, rondo was the best player on the court for either team.

what?????????????  Last I checked it was a team sport. What about the bench with nate and BBD helping us come from behind to win games in that series? What about the help from Sheed? Perk? before he went down?

While rondo had a great game 2 last year when did he take over and dominate a game and win it for us like Lebron did in game 6?

  While I didn't take notes on who played well in which games, I'd say it happened at least a half a dozen times in last year's playoffs.

Re: So Ray was not the problem...
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2013, 03:09:09 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1838
  • Tommy Points: 153
The issue with the Rondo style of play is that Rajon gets his assists but it is usually at the expense of ball movement. He dominates the ball and does not give it up until very late in the shot clock so that the recepient of his pass seldom has a chance to make another pass. This creates stagnation on offense, and helps the defense because when a defendant knows the defense knows that your only option is a shot two things happen your man goes all in to challenge your shot because he knows you are not passing, and the rest of the defense crashes the board because they dont have to even think about defending the entry pass - in short the defense is given an easy job and the offense looks ****ty.

  People say both of these things a lot, but there isn't a lot of evidence to back them up. We don't take a higher percentage of our shots at the end of the shot clock than other teams, in fact I think we take less of our shots late in the shot clock than average. Also, the fact that we're supposedly very easy to defend, we still normally have a good TS%, and that number tends to be higher when Rondo's controlling things and racking up the assists.

Since we keep stats on assists - and I believe those stats have been watered down because I dont see why a low percentage made basket off a pass should be given an assist - I think we should also track how many passes result in missed shots, just to see who is giving efficient passes.

  Some Wizards fan wanted to compare Wall's passing to Rondo's so last march he looked at all of Rondo's passes that led to a scoring chance and compared how many times we scored to how many times we either missed the shot or turned the ball over. We were converting on about 55% of the Rondo-created chances compared to about 35% on all other chances. He claimed (from an 82games article) that the increase that comes from an assist should be 8% or so, so Rondo's increase was about 2.5 times higher than normal.

We blamed Ray Allen that he stagnated the Boston offense because Rondo had to hold the ball until Ray could spring free from multiple screens, but Ray is gone now and Rondo before his injury was still pounding the ball. With hindsight it appears Ray was not really the problem.

  We play at a faster pace than last year (although not incredibly faster) so that may be correct. We also take slightly fewer shots at the end of the shot clock now. Those points could be Ray related.

This is a great stat Tim I'm glad you mentioned because it highlights the dynamic of our roster last year. Rondo and to a lesser extent, Paul, were the ONLY playmakers on last years team capable of bringing the ball up and initiating the offense. Last year's team had Ray, Daniels, Sasha, and an inexperienced AB. There was no one else to make plays for this team so Rondo was supposed to dominate the ball.

It was such the case that Doc's first order of business in the offseason was to tell Danny to bring him another playmaker on offense to take the pressure off Rondo. Danny responded by adding not 1 but basically 4 more playmakers(JET, Lee, Green, Barbosa) and add that to an improving Bradley and our cup now runneth over. But now this team has to adapt. We can't have Rondo dominate the ball like he did last year because unlike last year's group that were so comfortable never really having the ball in their hand unless it was to shoot, this group plays better touching the ball more, initiating the action and making plays on the fly and Rondo and Paul needed to adjust to that new reality. Some of this has to fall on Doc too. Doc tried to tell us JET needed to play more off the ball to take pressure off him. Huh?? Since when has JET ever been anything but a combo guard who makes plays off the bounce and runs pick n roll?

Ray did stagnate the offense because that curl took forever to run and Rondo would be left holding the bag too often. Ray also wanted to initiate plays more as well but he was no longer a good enough ballhandler to do it. That is the difference. These guys here are better at it(as a collection of part-time pgs) than Ray was. Our problem this year was that before Rondo got hurt, we didn't adjust to the new personnel.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog