Author Topic: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?  (Read 5353 times)

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Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2013, 10:56:07 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Re: Lee alledgedly being a headache, poor lockerroom presence, and that's why he was moved:

I do think guys get moved because of lockerroom problems. An extreme case is Delonte West. We could use the crap out of 'head on straight' Delonte right now. But a few days ago, in a story on ESPN as a footnote, it said that the Cs had no interest in West because of the headache he was the last time around.

But there is another side too; sometimes players. Are extremely useful, but have a limited upside, so teams pass them around when they have an upgrade in their sights, or acquire them as stopgaps when they're in a pinch. They're like one of those manual lawnmowers, if you can get a riding mower, or even one of those self-propeled push mowers, that's great, but if you've only got a weedwacker and you gotta cut your lawn, they'll do in a pinch. That, to me, is what Courtney Lee is.

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Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2013, 12:41:22 AM »

Offline action781

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Guys deny saying things even when their comments are on tape.  It's standard protocol when it's something controversial.  Maybe Lee didn't say it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.  I would be most surprised if guys weren't upset with Rondo's ball hogging.  It's never fun playing with a ball hog.


The guy leading the league in assists a ball hog...right! Because Chris Paul doesn't pound the ball...actually wait, he holds the ball the duration of the shot clock before either passing off or shooting. The infallible Chris Paul!

LAC - 4th in the NBA at 1.07ppp
BOS - 26th in the NBA at 0.996ppp

I personally don't care if the ball is pounded, spun on fingers, whatever, all I care about is results and wins.  If I don't like the results, then I look to what's happening during the games for causes.  I personally don't think Rondo's pounding is leading to effective offensive possessions.  If Chris Paul really is pounding like Rondo, somehow he's still making a lot better of it (with what I'd argue is an equal or weaker supporting cast).
Ah, but a cast with a post game and a cast that rebounds the ball on the offensive end. It makes a huge difference.

  I'm still trying to get past "weaker supporting cast". Take Rondo and Paul off of the rosters and I don't know that I'd go with the Celts as the stronger team, especially on offense.

It's definitely a subjective argument Tim, but I would take the celtics supporting cast.  And I did say "equal or weaker", not necessarily weaker which was an acknowledgment that I don't think the clippers supporting cast is definitively weaker, but think they are roughly equal and if I were to give either team the edge, I'd give it to the celitcs.

Nick, I agree with the sentiment of what your statement is saying.  But not to the extent where Griffin + Jordan (a pretty limited offensive player) vs. Bass + KG is the sole difference between 4th and 26th in the NBA.  And that's leaving out that the celtics are significantly more talented at the wing.
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Tony Parker, Courtney Lee, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol
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Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2013, 01:18:03 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I guarantee Lee will become MUCH happier with his time in Boston over the next few months. He's now found himself in a key starting role with some nice ball handling responsibility. Him, Jeff Green, Avery Bradley, and Jason Terry will now be allowed to do more than camp out for corner three's.

The Celtics transition game WITHOUT Rondo will allow the team's young players to flourish.



Tommy sounded like he was living in a dream last night... and i was right there with him.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2013, 02:03:23 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Celtics  Clippers
ShotAtt%eFG%Ast%Pts  Att%eFG%Ast%Pts
Jump71%44.5%70%50.9  68%46.7%65%51.9
Close24%57.5%48%22.3  24%57.6%55%22.7
Dunk3%88.7%74%4.6  5%92.1%72%8.1
Tips1%40.0%0%0.9  2%42.3%0%1.4
All100%49.0%63%78.8  100%51.7%62%84.1

And there it is,plain as day:  The vast bulk of the difference between the two teams' scoring is coming almost entirely on dunks.

I've said it before:  We miss having Wilcox in our offense soooo bad.

Another good post. I agree with you that the offense has missed Wilcox, and as tonight showed, he can have a serious impact on our offense.

However, I don't think it can be reduced to just that factor; it's not just that we lack Blake Griffin. It's also that Chris Paul has a much more dynamic game than Rondo. For one, his shooting is more respected than Rondo's. In some ways this is irrational because Rondo is actuallly a better shooter from the 10-20 range, but teams don't fear Rondo from that range like they do Paul, which tends to muck up the spacing and doesn't create those little slices of space that create openings at the hoop. Also, even though Rondo is Paul's equal in making quick decisions and pinpoint passes, he's worse at a perhaps better skill: using hesitations and patience to throw to freeze the defenders. All these things come together in the little elbow postup the Clippers run for Paul. He's so versatile as a shooter and passer, with patience and quickness, that he creates a half dozen or so possibilities for the offense. Rondo doesn't have that yet.

Another factor here, I think, is that Celtics sets often start too far out from the hoop. The Celtics just don't really have plays like Paul's elbow postup that start 15 feet from the basket; they are usually more like 22 feet away.

Because defenders know that Paul is willing to shoot or pass at any moment, they feel that more than not RR will look to pass. So even though RR is shooting better... everyone knows he doesn't really WANT to shoot it... so if I'm the defender, I believe he is going to pass at all times, sure he will mostly get 10-14 or so pts a night but I take away more points by focusing on helping on other players he most likely wants to pass to (could also keep him from driving in/blow past people b/c of the clog inside).
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Guys deny saying things even when their comments are on tape.  It's standard protocol when it's something controversial.  Maybe Lee didn't say it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.  I would be most surprised if guys weren't upset with Rondo's ball hogging.  It's never fun playing with a ball hog.


The guy leading the league in assists a ball hog...right! Because Chris Paul doesn't pound the ball...actually wait, he holds the ball the duration of the shot clock before either passing off or shooting. The infallible Chris Paul!

LAC - 4th in the NBA at 1.07ppp
BOS - 26th in the NBA at 0.996ppp

I personally don't care if the ball is pounded, spun on fingers, whatever, all I care about is results and wins.  If I don't like the results, then I look to what's happening during the games for causes.  I personally don't think Rondo's pounding is leading to effective offensive possessions.  If Chris Paul really is pounding like Rondo, somehow he's still making a lot better of it (with what I'd argue is an equal or weaker supporting cast).
Ah, but a cast with a post game and a cast that rebounds the ball on the offensive end. It makes a huge difference.

  I'm still trying to get past "weaker supporting cast". Take Rondo and Paul off of the rosters and I don't know that I'd go with the Celts as the stronger team, especially on offense.

It's definitely a subjective argument Tim, but I would take the celtics supporting cast.  And I did say "equal or weaker", not necessarily weaker which was an acknowledgment that I don't think the clippers supporting cast is definitively weaker, but think they are roughly equal and if I were to give either team the edge, I'd give it to the celitcs.

Nick, I agree with the sentiment of what your statement is saying.  But not to the extent where Griffin + Jordan (a pretty limited offensive player) vs. Bass + KG is the sole difference between 4th and 26th in the NBA.  And that's leaving out that the celtics are significantly more talented at the wing.
Jordan and Griffin combined, average 2 more offensive rebounds per game than does KG and Bass combined. KG and Bass' combined TS% is about 4% points less than Griffin and Jordan's combined TS%. I think that is going to effect a team's offensive efficiency by possibly as many as a couple points. A couple of points higher in team offensive efficiency could move the Celtics up to having a middle of the road offense.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2013, 09:59:27 PM »

Offline CelticHooligan3

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Love threads that virtually everyone makes a good comment.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2013, 10:23:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Celtics  Clippers
ShotAtt%eFG%Ast%Pts  Att%eFG%Ast%Pts
Jump71%44.5%70%50.9  68%46.7%65%51.9
Close24%57.5%48%22.3  24%57.6%55%22.7
Dunk3%88.7%74%4.6  5%92.1%72%8.1
Tips1%40.0%0%0.9  2%42.3%0%1.4
All100%49.0%63%78.8  100%51.7%62%84.1

And there it is,plain as day:  The vast bulk of the difference between the two teams' scoring is coming almost entirely on dunks.

I've said it before:  We miss having Wilcox in our offense soooo bad.

Another good post. I agree with you that the offense has missed Wilcox, and as tonight showed, he can have a serious impact on our offense.

However, I don't think it can be reduced to just that factor; it's not just that we lack Blake Griffin. It's also that Chris Paul has a much more dynamic game than Rondo. For one, his shooting is more respected than Rondo's. In some ways this is irrational because Rondo is actuallly a better shooter from the 10-20 range, but teams don't fear Rondo from that range like they do Paul, which tends to muck up the spacing and doesn't create those little slices of space that create openings at the hoop. Also, even though Rondo is Paul's equal in making quick decisions and pinpoint passes, he's worse at a perhaps better skill: using hesitations and patience to throw to freeze the defenders. All these things come together in the little elbow postup the Clippers run for Paul. He's so versatile as a shooter and passer, with patience and quickness, that he creates a half dozen or so possibilities for the offense. Rondo doesn't have that yet.

Another factor here, I think, is that Celtics sets often start too far out from the hoop. The Celtics just don't really have plays like Paul's elbow postup that start 15 feet from the basket; they are usually more like 22 feet away.

Because defenders know that Paul is willing to shoot or pass at any moment, they feel that more than not RR will look to pass. So even though RR is shooting better... everyone knows he doesn't really WANT to shoot it... so if I'm the defender, I believe he is going to pass at all times, sure he will mostly get 10-14 or so pts a night but I take away more points by focusing on helping on other players he most likely wants to pass to (could also keep him from driving in/blow past people b/c of the clog inside).

  Chris Paul and Rondo take the same number of shots a game.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2013, 10:41:04 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Celtics  Clippers
ShotAtt%eFG%Ast%Pts  Att%eFG%Ast%Pts
Jump71%44.5%70%50.9  68%46.7%65%51.9
Close24%57.5%48%22.3  24%57.6%55%22.7
Dunk3%88.7%74%4.6  5%92.1%72%8.1
Tips1%40.0%0%0.9  2%42.3%0%1.4
All100%49.0%63%78.8  100%51.7%62%84.1

And there it is,plain as day:  The vast bulk of the difference between the two teams' scoring is coming almost entirely on dunks.

I've said it before:  We miss having Wilcox in our offense soooo bad.

Another good post. I agree with you that the offense has missed Wilcox, and as tonight showed, he can have a serious impact on our offense.

However, I don't think it can be reduced to just that factor; it's not just that we lack Blake Griffin. It's also that Chris Paul has a much more dynamic game than Rondo. For one, his shooting is more respected than Rondo's. In some ways this is irrational because Rondo is actuallly a better shooter from the 10-20 range, but teams don't fear Rondo from that range like they do Paul, which tends to muck up the spacing and doesn't create those little slices of space that create openings at the hoop. Also, even though Rondo is Paul's equal in making quick decisions and pinpoint passes, he's worse at a perhaps better skill: using hesitations and patience to throw to freeze the defenders. All these things come together in the little elbow postup the Clippers run for Paul. He's so versatile as a shooter and passer, with patience and quickness, that he creates a half dozen or so possibilities for the offense. Rondo doesn't have that yet.

Another factor here, I think, is that Celtics sets often start too far out from the hoop. The Celtics just don't really have plays like Paul's elbow postup that start 15 feet from the basket; they are usually more like 22 feet away.

Because defenders know that Paul is willing to shoot or pass at any moment, they feel that more than not RR will look to pass. So even though RR is shooting better... everyone knows he doesn't really WANT to shoot it... so if I'm the defender, I believe he is going to pass at all times, sure he will mostly get 10-14 or so pts a night but I take away more points by focusing on helping on other players he most likely wants to pass to (could also keep him from driving in/blow past people b/c of the clog inside).

  Chris Paul and Rondo take the same number of shots a game.

In 4 less minutes, and going to the line more than Rondo.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2013, 11:27:47 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Guys deny saying things even when their comments are on tape.  It's standard protocol when it's something controversial.  Maybe Lee didn't say it but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.  I would be most surprised if guys weren't upset with Rondo's ball hogging.  It's never fun playing with a ball hog.


The guy leading the league in assists a ball hog...right! Because Chris Paul doesn't pound the ball...actually wait, he holds the ball the duration of the shot clock before either passing off or shooting. The infallible Chris Paul!

LAC - 4th in the NBA at 1.07ppp
BOS - 26th in the NBA at 0.996ppp

I personally don't care if the ball is pounded, spun on fingers, whatever, all I care about is results and wins.  If I don't like the results, then I look to what's happening during the games for causes.  I personally don't think Rondo's pounding is leading to effective offensive possessions.  If Chris Paul really is pounding like Rondo, somehow he's still making a lot better of it (with what I'd argue is an equal or weaker supporting cast).
Ah, but a cast with a post game and a cast that rebounds the ball on the offensive end. It makes a huge difference.

  I'm still trying to get past "weaker supporting cast". Take Rondo and Paul off of the rosters and I don't know that I'd go with the Celts as the stronger team, especially on offense.

It's definitely a subjective argument Tim, but I would take the celtics supporting cast.  And I did say "equal or weaker", not necessarily weaker which was an acknowledgment that I don't think the clippers supporting cast is definitively weaker, but think they are roughly equal and if I were to give either team the edge, I'd give it to the celitcs.

Nick, I agree with the sentiment of what your statement is saying.  But not to the extent where Griffin + Jordan (a pretty limited offensive player) vs. Bass + KG is the sole difference between 4th and 26th in the NBA.  And that's leaving out that the celtics are significantly more talented at the wing.
Jordan and Griffin combined, average 2 more offensive rebounds per game than does KG and Bass combined. KG and Bass' combined TS% is about 4% points less than Griffin and Jordan's combined TS%. I think that is going to effect a team's offensive efficiency by possibly as many as a couple points. A couple of points higher in team offensive efficiency could move the Celtics up to having a middle of the road offense.

  If you compare Boston's offense to the Clippers you see 2 main differences. The first is offensive rebounding. The Clips get 28%, the Celts get 21%. If the Celts got 28% that would be about 3.3 more "possessions" a game.

  The other area is shot selection. The Clippers take both more inside shots and more 3 pointers than the Celts. The difference in shot selection is also probably worth 3+ points per game. The Clippers also get to the line more than the Celts but this advantage is less significant because the Clips are poor free throw shooters.

  As for Griffin/Jordan vs KG/Bass, Griffin and Jordan combine for about 10 shots at the rim and 9 fta per game, KG and Bass combine for about 4 shots at the rim and 4 fta per game. That's a fairly significant difference.

  You'd really have to tie most (or all) of what I've described to roster makeup, not to any shortcoming on Rondo's part. If you look at the difference in inside shots it's easy to see that younger, more athletic players like Griffin and Jordan would excel over KG and Bass. If you look at our main 3 point shooters PP and Terry take more per minute than their career averages, Green's the same and Lee's a little less.

Re: Courtney Lee denies report from Zach Lowe, is happy in Boston?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2013, 11:39:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Celtics  Clippers
ShotAtt%eFG%Ast%Pts  Att%eFG%Ast%Pts
Jump71%44.5%70%50.9  68%46.7%65%51.9
Close24%57.5%48%22.3  24%57.6%55%22.7
Dunk3%88.7%74%4.6  5%92.1%72%8.1
Tips1%40.0%0%0.9  2%42.3%0%1.4
All100%49.0%63%78.8  100%51.7%62%84.1

And there it is,plain as day:  The vast bulk of the difference between the two teams' scoring is coming almost entirely on dunks.

I've said it before:  We miss having Wilcox in our offense soooo bad.

Another good post. I agree with you that the offense has missed Wilcox, and as tonight showed, he can have a serious impact on our offense.

However, I don't think it can be reduced to just that factor; it's not just that we lack Blake Griffin. It's also that Chris Paul has a much more dynamic game than Rondo. For one, his shooting is more respected than Rondo's. In some ways this is irrational because Rondo is actuallly a better shooter from the 10-20 range, but teams don't fear Rondo from that range like they do Paul, which tends to muck up the spacing and doesn't create those little slices of space that create openings at the hoop. Also, even though Rondo is Paul's equal in making quick decisions and pinpoint passes, he's worse at a perhaps better skill: using hesitations and patience to throw to freeze the defenders. All these things come together in the little elbow postup the Clippers run for Paul. He's so versatile as a shooter and passer, with patience and quickness, that he creates a half dozen or so possibilities for the offense. Rondo doesn't have that yet.

Another factor here, I think, is that Celtics sets often start too far out from the hoop. The Celtics just don't really have plays like Paul's elbow postup that start 15 feet from the basket; they are usually more like 22 feet away.

Because defenders know that Paul is willing to shoot or pass at any moment, they feel that more than not RR will look to pass. So even though RR is shooting better... everyone knows he doesn't really WANT to shoot it... so if I'm the defender, I believe he is going to pass at all times, sure he will mostly get 10-14 or so pts a night but I take away more points by focusing on helping on other players he most likely wants to pass to (could also keep him from driving in/blow past people b/c of the clog inside).

  Chris Paul and Rondo take the same number of shots a game.

In 4 less minutes, and going to the line more than Rondo.

  For this discussion the 4 less minutes is meaningless. I don't think a defender would ever think "Paul takes 12.2 shots per36 minutes compared to 11.8 for Rondo, therefore Paul's much more likely to shoot the ball". Also, while Paul takes more free throws than Rondo, he actually gets fouled on less of his shot attempts than Rondo, probably because he rarely takes the ball to the rim. The bulk of the foul shots would most likely be techs or intentional fouls late in games. Not that those points don't count, but it's not something that will lead a defender to think CP is more likely to shoot in a given situation.

 

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