Author Topic: Say we do well without Rondo  (Read 3573 times)

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Offline triboy16f

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2013, 11:56:06 PM »
We win vs nyn, Mia, sac without rondo so far. But with him we lose to these teams. Can the coincidence be that rondo is out of the lineup? We will go on a streak imo. I would love to see our team trail by the 4th and play lockdown defense, and comeback to win it. This is the amazing capability of this lineup
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Offline Galeto

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2013, 12:22:07 AM »
This team still has a lot of talent and if they can keep playing cohesively so that they play better or equal to the sum of their parts instead of less, they'll be more than fine.  I'm happy to see consistent ball movement, unselfishness and pushing the ball up ahead again.  It's been the Rondo show for too long.

Offline ejk3489

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2013, 12:51:43 AM »
Say we do go on a run for the rest of the year and make a little noise in the playoffs.

Who's to say that Rondo wouldn't recognize that and adapt to it?  He's stubborn, but he's also very intelligent.  If he sees that something is working well, I'd say chances are very good that he'd make an effort to fit in, rather than forcing the Celtics back into a stagnant offense.  I don't think he likes losing any more than we do.
The problem is that Rondo is a flawed player and there are some issues that aren't on Doc but on him.  Is he going to adapt by getting a jump shot so we're not playing 4 on 5?  Obviously, if he could, he would have done that already.

Um, he already is.  He's been shooting jumpshots - and making a solid percentage of them - all year.

Bad example.  If you brought up the free throw issue I would have agreed with you, but Rondo is showing every sign of trying to become a better shooter.
Rondo may be shooting some wide open jump shots, and hitting a decent percentage given that they are wide open.  But, teams still aren't guarding him out there.  They still leave him to double team and go under every screen.  They still clog up the paint for other players when rondo is on the floor. 

So no, the fact that rondo is hitting some shots here and there does NOT erase the fact that his lack of a good jump shot still hinders the team.

Rondo shoots 48% from 16-23FT on 3.5 attempts per game (a career high)...that's hardly "hitting a few shots here and there"

For comparison to other top guards...
(field goal% - attempts per game)

Nash: 58%-1.8, Irving: 49%-4.6, CP3: 48%-3.3, Parker: 42%-4.3, Westbrook: 34%-4.1, Deron: 38%-3, Jennings: 36%-3.8, Ellis: 33%-5.6, Holliday: 32%-5.6, Wall: 26%-4.5

Whether opposing guards respect it or not, that's not really on Rondo...look at what Doc had to say about it two weeks ago:

Quote
"They don't believe it," Rivers said. "At the end of the day, that's not going to change this year. He can make 30 in a row, and that's not going to change."

That's not a problem for Rondo who came into Friday's game as the third-highest shooting percentage among guards in the NBA, and is currently shooting 49.6 percent from the field.

Celtics guard Courtney Lee remembers how his former teams in Houston, Orlando and New Jersey, would prepare to face Rondo and the C's.

"When we played against him, we wanted him to shoot the jump-shot," said Lee, who added that Rondo's play of late will change that.

"Teams are going to have to start respecting it," Lee said. "Because he's been putting in a lot of work after practice. I try to be the last one out of there, but he's in there shooting shots, too. You can see it's paying off."

Not only does Rivers not anticipate teams changing up their approach to Rondo now, he believes the same strategy will apply to whoever the C's might face in the playoffs.

"That's just how our league works. You have to make them a believer for about year before they believe it."

Look, he will obviously never shoot like Nash or Ray Allen, but I think he has shown over the season how improved his jump shot is and I'm not sure how much more development you expect out of him at this point. Personally, I'm glad he knows his limits/ability rather than jacking up shots like Ellis or Wall while being incredibly inefficient doing so.

Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2013, 12:57:29 AM »
Zack Lowe made a great point about Rondo's improved jump shooting:

Quote
Everyone knows Rondo's issues. His jumper is improved but still shaky, and teams ignore him in order to clog Boston's already so-so spacing. Yes, Rondo has hit a career-best 48 percent on long 2-point jumpers this season, a number roughly comparable to those of elite mid-range shooters like Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Paul. But the numbers mask an obvious difference between those guys and Rondo: The jump shots of Nowitzki and Paul are weapons defenses attempt to take away by throwing extra attention at them, and weapons those shooters are comfortable using in high volume. Rondo's jump shot is a wide-open, last-resort look defenses are happy to provide if it means containing other action. Nowitzki might shoot 75 percent on equivalent looks at the hoop.

On one hand this might be seen as looking a gift horse in the mouth, but I think it's a very valid point.

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Offline Atzar

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2013, 01:19:38 AM »
Zack Lowe made a great point about Rondo's improved jump shooting:

Quote
Everyone knows Rondo's issues. His jumper is improved but still shaky, and teams ignore him in order to clog Boston's already so-so spacing. Yes, Rondo has hit a career-best 48 percent on long 2-point jumpers this season, a number roughly comparable to those of elite mid-range shooters like Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Paul. But the numbers mask an obvious difference between those guys and Rondo: The jump shots of Nowitzki and Paul are weapons defenses attempt to take away by throwing extra attention at them, and weapons those shooters are comfortable using in high volume. Rondo's jump shot is a wide-open, last-resort look defenses are happy to provide if it means containing other action. Nowitzki might shoot 75 percent on equivalent looks at the hoop.

On one hand this might be seen as looking a gift horse in the mouth, but I think it's a very valid point.

If Rondo isn't a good shooter at this point, then you can't call guys like Novak and Kidd good shooters either.  They all do the same thing - take shots when they're wide open. 

I'm not sure why a double-standard is created for Rondo here.  No, he's not on the level of guys like Kobe, Kyrie, and Durant, who continue to shoot at elite levels despite having a hand in their face all game.  They're on another level. 

But the fact is, most of the best shooters in this league only shoot when they're wide open.  Yet they're still regarded as good shooters, and Rondo isn't despite producing similar results.  I don't get it.

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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2013, 01:32:19 AM »
Zack Lowe made a great point about Rondo's improved jump shooting:

Quote
Everyone knows Rondo's issues. His jumper is improved but still shaky, and teams ignore him in order to clog Boston's already so-so spacing. Yes, Rondo has hit a career-best 48 percent on long 2-point jumpers this season, a number roughly comparable to those of elite mid-range shooters like Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Paul. But the numbers mask an obvious difference between those guys and Rondo: The jump shots of Nowitzki and Paul are weapons defenses attempt to take away by throwing extra attention at them, and weapons those shooters are comfortable using in high volume. Rondo's jump shot is a wide-open, last-resort look defenses are happy to provide if it means containing other action. Nowitzki might shoot 75 percent on equivalent looks at the hoop.

On one hand this might be seen as looking a gift horse in the mouth, but I think it's a very valid point.

If Rondo isn't a good shooter at this point, then you can't call guys like Novak and Kidd good shooters either.  They all do the same thing - take shots when they're wide open. 

I'm not sure why a double-standard is created for Rondo here.  No, he's not on the level of guys like Kobe, Kyrie, and Durant, who continue to shoot at elite levels despite having a hand in their face all game.  They're on another level. 

But the fact is, most of the best shooters in this league only shoot when they're wide open.  Yet they're still regarded as good shooters, and Rondo isn't despite producing similar results.  I don't get it.

I think you're drawing lines that I (and Lowe) am not. Rondo's jump shooting is improved. But it is not a primary weapon in his game, it's not a primary weapon in the Celtics offense, and it benefits (in a fairly immeasurable way) from the fact that he shoots a disproportionate amount of them wide open.

Jason Kidd is not an elite offensive player, neither is Steve Novak. Rondo is a game changer, but pointing to his improved numbers as proof positive that he is a peer of elite mid-range shooters like Dirk or CP3 is likely misguided because of the context of what their abilities mean for their teams' offensive schemes.

It's a fine distinction, but one worth making. If Rondo was as good a jump shooter as his numbers suggest, spacing would be improved, and his teammates looks should get better. That's not happening yet, and for it to happen Rondo's jumper needs to be integrated better into the game plan, and he needs to continue to make it.

Like I said before, his shot is improved, and that's a good thing, but it doesn't alleviate the concerns many people have about his shooting ability, and it's impact on the offense. But it's a heck of a lot better than it was 2 years ago.

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Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2013, 01:35:25 AM »
Say we do go on a run for the rest of the year and make a little noise in the playoffs.

Who's to say that Rondo wouldn't recognize that and adapt to it?  He's stubborn, but he's also very intelligent.  If he sees that something is working well, I'd say chances are very good that he'd make an effort to fit in, rather than forcing the Celtics back into a stagnant offense.  I don't think he likes losing any more than we do.

For the third time...

How is this Rondo's fault and not Doc's?

The pound the ball to the ground offense is all Doc. UGH.

Rondo is Doc's "Coach on the floor".  Often Doc leaves it up to Rondo to make decisions, choose plays and draw up the offense on the fly.

You would be grossly underestimating Rondo's influence if you were to believe that Rondo is just Doc's puppet.

Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2013, 01:36:12 AM »
Quote
But the fact is, most of the best shooters in this league only shoot when they're wide open.  Yet they're still regarded as good shooters, and Rondo isn't despite producing similar results.  I don't get it.

And also, I think this is false, or at least a half-truth. Yes many of the shooters with the best numbers are open when they take the shots, but the elite shooters still make those shots, even when game-planned against them. Steph Curry, CP3, Dirk, Ray Allen, those guys (and many others) use their shots to change the way teams defend them, creating opportunities for their teammates just by being on the floor, whether they have the ball or not. That's not something Rondo does with his jumper yet.

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Offline Galeto

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2013, 01:38:17 AM »
Rondo's shooting was much better, to the point that it's above-average but teams still didn't respect it, played off him and mucked up the middle of the court and post-ups to his side.  The positive effect of his improved shot was neutralized to whatever extent by the continued lack of spacing and the lack ability of his teammates to play through the middle of the court.  Rondo really didn't make teams pay for roaming off him because he still didn't take a lot of spot up jumpers and he wasn't taking them from three. 

Offline Celtics18

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2013, 01:41:29 AM »
Zach Lowe is a dirt bag. 
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Offline Galeto

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2013, 01:42:54 AM »
Say we do go on a run for the rest of the year and make a little noise in the playoffs.

Who's to say that Rondo wouldn't recognize that and adapt to it?  He's stubborn, but he's also very intelligent.  If he sees that something is working well, I'd say chances are very good that he'd make an effort to fit in, rather than forcing the Celtics back into a stagnant offense.  I don't think he likes losing any more than we do.

For the third time...

How is this Rondo's fault and not Doc's?

The pound the ball to the ground offense is all Doc. UGH.

Rondo is Doc's "Coach on the floor".  Often Doc leaves it up to Rondo to make decisions, choose plays and draw up the offense on the fly.

You would be grossly underestimating Rondo's influence if you were to believe that Rondo is just Doc's puppet.

Absolutely.  If it's Doc's design that Rondo dribble as much as he wants to his heart's content, then why do the Celtics play differently without him?  That hasn't been the offense when Rondo's been out this season, it wasn't the offense when Rondo was out last season and it wasn't the offense in 2008 and 2009.  I blame Doc for creating the dribble monster in 2010 and for not having the balls to reel it in.

Offline Galeto

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2013, 01:44:54 AM »
Zach Lowe is a dirt bag.

How dare Lowe say Dirk and Chris Paul are better shooters than Rondo!  The nerve. 

Offline Celtics18

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2013, 01:53:15 AM »
Zach Lowe is a dirt bag.

How dare Lowe say Dirk and Chris Paul are better shooters than Rondo!  The nerve.

I don't care about that.  The guy seems to be on a bit of a Rondo smear campaign lately, though.  In addition to the Lee thing, he also calls Rondo a "brat" in the article you guys are referencing.

Here's the quote:

"The rumors about his sour personality are true — there are hundreds of whispered "Rondo's a brat" stories floating around the league — but his talent and smarts are overwhelming."

He throws that in as a little aside?  C'mpn.  That's scummy.
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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2013, 01:55:48 AM »
Zach Lowe is a dirt bag.

This got a LOL out of me.

The only thing better would've been, 'NO, Zack Lowe, YOU ARE!'

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Offline IndeedProceed

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Re: Say we do well without Rondo
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2013, 02:03:26 AM »
Zach Lowe is a dirt bag.

How dare Lowe say Dirk and Chris Paul are better shooters than Rondo!  The nerve.

I don't care about that.  The guy seems to be on a bit of a Rondo smear campaign lately, though.  In addition to the Lee thing, he also calls Rondo a "brat" in the article you guys are referencing.

Here's the quote:

"The rumors about his sour personality are true — there are hundreds of whispered "Rondo's a brat" stories floating around the league — but his talent and smarts are overwhelming."

He throws that in as a little aside?  C'mpn.  That's scummy.

I think you're seeing motive where there isn't any. Everyone and their mother knows there are bad stories about Rondo out there. He's a tough and demanding teammate. He's butted heads with coaches at literally every level.

The fact that he didnt make that a major part of his analysis actually is counter-intuitive to your criticism.

I thought his piece on Rondo was one of the most well-thought and even handed pieces on Rondo you'll see. He praised him multiple times, and pointed out places where he found him lacking. A smear campaign? I don't see it. Did you miss the previous sentence to the one you posted?

"He is perhaps the NBA's best passer, with a savant's understanding of how to create space and shooting opportunities for others via an extra dribble or a tiny change of direction. "

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