Author Topic: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style  (Read 9421 times)

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #165 on: January 30, 2013, 10:11:51 AM »

Offline Chris

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I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous. 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #166 on: January 30, 2013, 10:11:59 AM »

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Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.



Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #167 on: January 30, 2013, 10:19:22 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #168 on: January 30, 2013, 10:29:43 AM »

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Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

To me, it just sounds like a guy trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation. 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #169 on: January 30, 2013, 10:38:23 AM »

Offline Galeto

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This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it. 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #170 on: January 30, 2013, 10:41:23 AM »

Offline Chris

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I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.

How do?  Could you elaborate?

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #171 on: January 30, 2013, 10:43:06 AM »

Offline Galeto

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Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

To me, it just sounds like a guy trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation.

I feel differently.  The comments about Rondo read as not trying to create controversy and not kicking a guy while he's down.  I read excitement and a whiff, Finally!, in his comments about how they're going to play from now on.  Or maybe that's just me because that's how I'm feeling.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #172 on: January 30, 2013, 10:48:29 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Thank you for your voice of sanity. It's quite true: this is on Doc and/or Rondo.

It's only logical to think that if Danny goes after certain players, it's because he likes their game and wants to incorporate their game into Boston's scheme. So he goes out and gets Jason Terry, a great pick-and-roll player in Dallas ... and Doc hardly uses him in the P&R. Danny goes to great lengths to get Courtney Lee, who's quite athletic and is capable of cutting and getting to the rim ... yet Doc glues him to the corner 3. Danny brings in Leandro Barbosa, a player known for an explosive offensive game, a guy who'll just put his head down and get to the rack, more often than not leading to something good for his team ... and Doc hardly uses him.

Doc has always favored the older guys, but the older guys can no longer carry the load, so Doc puts the ball in Rondo's hands more and more, which isn't Rondo's fault, but we don't have a multiscreen offensive player (Ray) anymore, and Rondo doesn't like to drive, because he dislikes contact, so what ends up happening? Pound, pound, pound, until Pierce or KG get open, or else Rondo puts up a (for him) low-percentage outside shot, while all these other players—who have their own gifts and abilities—are left standing around like a bunch of window-display dummies, not only to create or play to their strengths.

I, for one, am excited to see what could happen with our offense now that Doc doesn't have his binky to rely on. It certainly looked alright in the Miami game.
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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #173 on: January 30, 2013, 10:53:34 AM »

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This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.
 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2013, 10:54:13 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.

How do?  Could you elaborate?

The notion that playing Rondo off the ball insinuates that someone else needs to carry the team offensively.

Also, as is, Pierce and KG are still carrying a bulk load of our offense... all you're doing with Rondo right now is giving them the ball later in the shot clock.

And I disagree with the "basically useless" aspect of the flow of the offense. If anything Rondo has shown, is that he's become a pretty good spot up shooter. If the spacing is not there, all it means is that Rondo is open for a shot, a shot he's actually taking (it hurts us in previous years because he wasn't comfortable taking it). But he needs to be in a space where he actually can make a shot. What we're doing right now is that once the ball leaves his hands he stays around the 3-point arc, and if you don't have Rondo slashing, then it hurts us.

Rondo with the ball in his hands is only dangerous when, you know, he's actually doing something with it. As is, too often is really not doing anything, and that's a problem. People complain about Chris Paul and Westbrook pounding the ball, I'd take their pounding of the ball and how it affects the offense, over Rondo's version of pounding the ball.

This would be a different story if Rondo thought of himself as a primary scoring threat. Doesn't mean he won't pass the ball, but his passiveness as he waits for plays to "develop" is not very productive in my opinion.

You can constantly play Rondo off the ball, and still have him touching the ball 2 to 3 times in a possession, depending on how it goes within the frame of a more dynamic offense.

All I'm saying is that there's plenty of room to use Rondo more off the ball, and we'd be the better for it.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 11:21:03 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #175 on: January 30, 2013, 10:56:50 AM »

Offline Galeto

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In 2008, when Rondo played off the ball about 100 percent more than he did the past three years, he stood in the corners more.  I re-watched the 2008 Finals and he was there a lot.  That minimized as much as possible how much Rondo's defender could roam and muck up the middle and post-ups.  Ever since Rondo became Rondo, the all-star and one of the best players in the league, his off the ball position has been on the wings or in the middle of the court.  I always thought that perhaps Rondo thought standing in the corner was a little beneath him.  Unsurprisingly, that's allowed his defender to easily choke off drives to the middle or post-ups to his side of the court. 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #176 on: January 30, 2013, 10:59:07 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Now is time for Lee to put up or shut up with Rondo out.

I agree with Lee , Rondo holds theball far too much , Rondo takes far too much time to put the ball into play

Anxious to see what Barbosa and Lee can do with more movement and team play...........

rondo can be be like Kobe and have too much control for the best  team effort to emerge

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #177 on: January 30, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Lee is an average role player at best...so waaah. The rondo system had gotten the best out of a lot of our guys, mainly kg....this year because of attitudes like Lee's it hasn't as well after a great start for rajon.. that's been on doc as much as anyone...I'm sure Terry and green both felt the same .....this is on the role players bad attitudes first and foremost...if they embraced it and fit the system they would see results like Avery, bass last year and other role player

Irrelevant now but I don't know who lee thinks he is? Clearly he's delusional....his talents really could have flourished with rondo if he had the right attitude....but he couldn't even start alongside rondo when Avery was out...obviously because doc knew of this whining.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 11:08:11 AM by scaryjerry »

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #178 on: January 30, 2013, 11:04:47 AM »

Offline Galeto

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This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.

You missed my point.  First off though, they are actually the 28th rated offense this year.  They were 27th last year too.  My point was, was letting Rondo dominate the ball so much saving them from being the 30th rated offense or perhaps the worst offense of all time?  Even if you were Doc and said, Yes, Rondo is the guy saving this team from scoring 60 a night, wouldn't you want to at least see what the alternative could be?  What was there to lose?  I could understand keeping with the status quo if Rondo was directing top 10 offenses but to not change ANYTHING in the face of putrid offenses, well, that made me hate Doc's coaching.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #179 on: January 30, 2013, 11:05:39 AM »

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You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Thank you for your voice of sanity. It's quite true: this is on Doc and/or Rondo.

It's only logical to think that if Danny goes after certain players, it's because he likes their game and wants to incorporate their game into Boston's scheme. So he goes out and gets Jason Terry, a great pick-and-roll player in Dallas ... and Doc hardly uses him in the P&R. Danny goes to great lengths to get Courtney Lee, who's quite athletic and is capable of cutting and getting to the rim ... yet Doc glues him to the corner 3. Danny brings in Leandro Barbosa, a player known for an explosive offensive game, a guy who'll just put his head down and get to the rack, more often than not leading to something good for his team ... and Doc hardly uses him.

Doc has always favored the older guys, but the older guys can no longer carry the load, so Doc puts the ball in Rondo's hands more and more, which isn't Rondo's fault, but we don't have a multiscreen offensive player (Ray) anymore, and Rondo doesn't like to drive, because he dislikes contact, so what ends up happening? Pound, pound, pound, until Pierce or KG get open, or else Rondo puts up a (for him) low-percentage outside shot, while all these other players—who have their own gifts and abilities—are left standing around like a bunch of window-display dummies, not only to create or play to their strengths.

I, for one, am excited to see what could happen with our offense now that Doc doesn't have his binky to rely on. It certainly looked alright in the Miami game.

I'm sorry guys, but Rondo has been our best player for the first half of the season.  The fact that Jason Terry and Paul Pierce have been unable to hit shots isn't his fault. 

The repeated assertion that Rondo doesn't like to drive is completely untrue.  He gets in the lane a lot and makes good things happen when he does.  This is what makes him an elite player.  Are there possessions where he dribbles the ball at the top of the key, waiting for someone to get open off the ball?  Yes. 

Someone, do me a favor and watch a Clippers game sometime, and pay attention to how often Chris Paul--the best point guard in the league--pounds the ball at the top of the key. 

I hope to see this team start to play better.  If they do, it will be because some guys who have been subpar so far this year, particularly Pierce and Terry, step up their games now that Rondo is down.  If they can do that, I'll be thrilled, but it won't be an indictment against Rondo. 

 

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