Author Topic: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style  (Read 8508 times)

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Offline crimson_stallion

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #150 on: January 30, 2013, 03:39:22 AM »
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

No, you are clearly just a Rondo fanboy who can't see past the "Rondo is God" thinking.  This entire thread you've been talking as if Rondo can do NO WRONG. 

The reason why Doc has shown interest in Reddick?  Because we are one of the worse offensive teams in the league, and we NEED another ~15 PPG player who can take some of the scoring load off Pierce and KG.

The problem is that given our talent level, we shouldn't be anywhere near the bottom of the league offensively.  Somehow though Terry, Green, Lee and Bass have all struggled with their scoring this season, and if you get 3 PPG less from each of those guys, that's 12PPG less we are scoring as a team...and that's a huge difference.

Is an average of 3 PPG unfeasible?  Not really.  Green and Terry should be up around 12PPG, but both are averaging about 9 PPG.  Lee should be up around 8 PPG, and he's at about 7.  Bass was averaging 14 PPG last season, now he's at 8 PPG.

Overall that's 13 PPG less we're getting from those guys than we probably should be.

Barbosa has probably been the only guy who (when on the court) has been gettig his points as expected, and ironically he's the one guy who tends to create his own shots rather than score off assists.

Bradley's numbers are down too.

Rondo fan's point the finger at anybody just so it's not pointing at Rondo - if it's not the players it's the coach, if it's not him then it's DA. 

Rondo pretty much runs this offense from the word go.  A lot of the time Doc doesn't even tell them what to run, he leaves it up to Rondo to dictate. 

I honestly find it difficult to believe that Terry, Lee, Green and Bass (guys who have all been the model of consistency over their careers) are all having down years, and it's purely by coincidence.

You can blame DA, but he brought an INCREDIBLE amount of talent here given what he had available. 

You can blame Doc, but he's consistently shown the ability to make the most of a very small amount of talent over the years.

 

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #151 on: January 30, 2013, 04:02:34 AM »
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.

You didn't say it, you inferred it... you said that our talent without RR was a 5th-8th seed, so if you think RR makes us better then we were probably good enough for a 3 seed. Which you pretty much said we aren't. The part that you made bold in the original person's comment said that with the talent we have (on paper) we should be a top 3 team... he was talking about with RR! I don't need to reread your post, you need to reread what you were commenting on.
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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #152 on: January 30, 2013, 04:20:26 AM »
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.

You didn't say it, you inferred it... you said that our talent without RR was a 5th-8th seed, so if you think RR makes us better then we were probably good enough for a 3 seed. Which you pretty much said we aren't. The part that you made bold in the original person's comment said that with the talent we have (on paper) we should be a top 3 team... he was talking about with RR! I don't need to reread your post, you need to reread what you were commenting on.

I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are so upset.  I gave my opinion. 

The previous poster used the verb "is".  As in "this Celtics team IS packed with talent".  That is a PRESENT TENSE VERB!  So I assumed he meant with Rondo out.  I said with Rondo out we are a 5-8th seed talent wise.  I said I don't know where we are WITH Rondo.  YOU are the one misinterpreting.  I was extremely clear in what I posted.  If you disagree with my thoughts, oh well.

Offline Gomesfan

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2013, 07:35:02 AM »
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol
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Offline bfrombleacher

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2013, 07:40:22 AM »
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol

They want to shed Bargnani and Lowry, not Davis and Calderone.

Offline Gomesfan

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2013, 07:54:39 AM »
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol

They want to shed Bargnani and Lowry, not Davis and Calderone.
All the articles Isee say they are looking for a third team to take CCalderón?
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Online BballTim

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #156 on: January 30, 2013, 08:20:35 AM »
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

  I get it. You think that players like Bradley and Lee, who play around 22 minutes a game and spend much of their time on offense doing nothing besides standing in a corner, put in more effort than Rondo on defense. You might be right. You also seem to think that's the main way to evaluate a player's worth to a team, and that you can ignore the fact that Rondo's contributions on offense dwarfs theirs. That's where you're wrong.

Pierce has been missing alot of shots lately and is showing real signs of slowing down. If you just look at numbers and base everything off of that you will only get half of the story at best.

  Yes, PP is slowing down, but you also have to consider that a) most of the other players on the roster have had fairly up and down years and b) he was so much more important to the team to begin with than your "non-problem" players that he'll still have to slow down more to get to their level.

*Edit* Perfect example off the top of my head. Lebron scored like 30plus points last game. Now if you just look at the numbers you would assume green played poor defense on lebron. Now if you actually watch the game you will know that is far from the truth.

  Sure, but do you realize that the numbers that I'm showing are for half a season and not just one game? Sometimes Green gets matched up with James, plays good defense and gets bad stats from it. The next night he'll play against Prince or Webster and give up much less scoring. It evens out over time.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:52:47 AM by BballTim »

Offline ssspence

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #157 on: January 30, 2013, 09:34:28 AM »
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.

Whether it's a Vet Min player or a HOF'er, whether you like or dislike Lee, whether it's justified or not, is completely beside the point. No blogger can influence it. It is, as they say, what it is. If NBA players feel that way, then they do -- and it's a factor in the future of the team.

That said, it's something to watch. If the Cs reel off a significantly better second half of the year, it won't make them contenders, but it should tell all of us -- just as it will tell the Cs organization -- something very important about Rondo's viability as a franchise player to build around. 

I couldn't care less about whether Courtney Lee is a terrific guy or a li'l weasel. What I care about is avoiding another late-90's early-00's style rebuild. If Rondo is going to be a negative force on the Celtics locker room (as guys are drafted), and therefore the Celtics brand (as Ainge attempts to sign FAs)... I want to know that. We all should.

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2013, 09:40:12 AM »
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.


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Online BballTim

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #159 on: January 30, 2013, 09:48:04 AM »
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.


  While it's true Rondo's a little high strung I don't think he's developing a bad reputation as much as people are trying to pin one on him. Last year there was a lot of talk about whether we could rebuild around Rondo and many posters stated that we'd never be able to attract free agents in Boston because none of them would want to play with Rondo. Lo and behold, the people who came here were talking about wanting to play with Rondo as being a big plus.

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #160 on: January 30, 2013, 09:48:08 AM »
While the offense they ran with Rondo certainly caused issues (reportedly Ray Allen hated it too), I also think there is another issue this year, and that is the depth of the team.

We look at depth as a good thing, and generally it is.  However, in the NBA, having a lot of guys who are all around the same skill level always causes issues to some degree.

If the team is winning, it can generally be glossed over a bit, but once the losses start piling up, then things can get ugly.

And I am not sure there is any amount of coaching that can really avoid that.  If you try to make everyone happy, you are just going to make everyone miserable, because no one will get the shots they want.  If you try to pick and choose who to use, then you will have fewer miserable players, but they might be much more angry, and could really cause problems in the lockerroom.

Of course the problem is, it is really hard to get elite talent in the NBA, and if you don't have that elite talent, then your only chance to even try to win is with depth...but that is just so hard to balance. 

Offline MBunge

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #161 on: January 30, 2013, 09:57:23 AM »
I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

Including Rondo.

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #162 on: January 30, 2013, 09:58:06 AM »
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.
Hopefully while Rondo is out they are able to implement a more motion oriented offense. Then when he comes back they add his fast break skills to that motion offense.
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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #163 on: January 30, 2013, 10:06:37 AM »
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.

Now he's making them, he's more confident in his game. He's a dangerous slasher when he wants to be.

This doesn't mean either that he won't be touching the ball often within the frame of the system, but I've always felt that the way he dominates the ball is completely counter-productive for us and for him.

Doc and Rondo share the blame on this particular regard, Doc for his system, and it's Rondo out there calling the plays and executing them however he sees fit.

I think this part is quite important from Terry:


“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

“Today’s a key practice for us.”


I think this particular portion of the offensive system left a lot wondering what the heck they should do play to play, and wondering what they think Rondo wants to do from play to play, which means a lot of indecision and stagnation. Again, counter-productive.

Offline ssspence

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #164 on: January 30, 2013, 10:11:40 AM »
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.


  While it's true Rondo's a little high strung I don't think he's developing a bad reputation as much as people are trying to pin one on him. Last year there was a lot of talk about whether we could rebuild around Rondo and many posters stated that we'd never be able to attract free agents in Boston because none of them would want to play with Rondo. Lo and behold, the people who came here were talking about wanting to play with Rondo as being a big plus.

Yep, and the guy's still an assist machine -- which should make him attractive to shooters and scorers.

Yet it's not last year anymore. Some of those guys are now a little grumpier, and Ray Allen has since aired his dirty laundry (which I find pretty weak, but doesn't ensure NBA players do). Again, I think it bears continued monitoring.

 

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