Author Topic: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style  (Read 9796 times)

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Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2013, 01:11:04 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2013, 01:15:36 AM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions and making crap up. Unbelievable.

First and foremost, he was traded from the Magic because Otis Thorpe is an idiot and thought Vince Carter was the key to get Dwight his championship.

He was traded from the Nets because that was a horrible team, and during that trade they reduced their cap space by $10 million.

Houston always wanted Courtney Lee. They had planned on drafting him, but he went before it got to their pick.

He was traded to Boston because they had a logjam at the position, and they simply were going to waste money on him unnecesarily.

Kevin McHale had nothing but good things to say about Courtney, not only as a player, but expounded on him as a human being and a great person to be around.

Sorry Nick, but you're just way off base here.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2013, 01:22:25 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions and making crap up. Unbelievable.

First and foremost, he was traded from the Magic because Otis Thorpe is an idiot and thought Vince Carter was the key to get Dwight his championship.

He was traded from the Nets because that was a horrible team, and during that trade they reduced their cap space by $10 million.

Houston always wanted Courtney Lee. They had planned on drafting him, but he went before it got to their pick.

He was traded to Boston because they had a logjam at the position, and they simply were going to waste money on him unnecesarily.

Kevin McHale had nothing but good things to say about Courtney, not only as a player, but expounded on him as a human being and a great person to be around.

Sorry Nick, but you're just way off base here.

It's far more logical than blaming a role players issues on Rondo.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #138 on: January 30, 2013, 01:27:59 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

Pierce has been missing alot of shots lately and is showing real signs of slowing down. If you just look at numbers and base everything off of that you will only get half of the story at best.

*Edit* Perfect example off the top of my head. Lebron scored like 30plus points last game. Now if you just look at the numbers you would assume green played poor defense on lebron. Now if you actually watch the game you will know that is far from the truth.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #139 on: January 30, 2013, 02:22:05 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

Oh guy, another Rondo romantic...

You're saying a person has no right to be unhappy?  Lee hasn't gone around complaining to the media.  It's one guy who made hints ad what Lee has 'allegedly' said.

If Lee is in a position where he cannot be effective becuase the team doesn't allow him to play to his strengths, then he has every right to be unhappy.  If he doesn't produce as well as he can it reflects badly on his value as well. 

Don't forget Lee took a paycut to come here and be a part of this winning system - for a team that has been struggling to win.  If he does feel that way then I doubt he's along either, 

You talk about it like Rondo is god's gift to basketball and everyone who gets a chance to play with him should be honoured and worship the gods.  Geez.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #140 on: January 30, 2013, 02:26:39 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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How is this not entirely Doc's fault?

Because Doc isn't Rondo? Because Doc doesn't sit behind the bench with an Xbox controller that's wired into Rondo's brain?

Doc's only mistake is that he gives Rondo pretty much complete freedom (too much freedom) to make decisions and do what he wants on the court.  Yes that's a bad thing, but Rondo is still the one who's out there doing it.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2013, 02:30:35 AM »

Offline action781

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You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Danny Ainge ??
Thank you Who.

In general, yes, the GM would be a 3rd place to place blame.  I didn't mention that, but it's because I don't think its a possible place to place the blame on this team.  Did anyone think in the preseason that Danny Ainge had put together a ball club that would be under .500 at this point in the season?  I think Danny did his job.  Something (or things) else is failing.
.................to the
Assistant ^ General Manager for the Pawnee Pacers

Tony Parker, Courtney Lee, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol
Jeff Teague, Paul George, Trevor Ariza, Chuck Hayes, Channing Frye
Kemba Walker, Andres Nocioni, Jason Collins

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #142 on: January 30, 2013, 02:31:54 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The reason we are not a good team probably has more to do with so many players that want things done their way and want their touches than it has to do with Rondo.

Lee, Barbosa and Bass have all complained about getting time and touches. That's never happened here during the Big Three era because it was TEAM first. I don't see Sully, Pierce, KG, or Bradley doing that. Just players that want their games not being sacrificed for the good of the team.

Seems to me this must be the reason this guy has been on 4 teams in 5 years.
[/quote]

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that both Bass and Barbosa only really have one talent - scoring.  You can't score if you never get the ball, and if these guys aren't scoring their value on the team goes down, and they open themselves up for being traded to lottery teams.

It's a players responsibility to do their best to make the most of their skills, but if you are put in a position where you can't do that because of the system that's in place around you, then I can understand how that could become highly frustrating. 

As for Lee's attitude, he actually has had a positive reputation everywhere he's gone for being a good team mate and a positive locker room guy.  Same can be said for Ray Allen, and also for Bass.  I've never really heard any complaits about Barbosa being a bad locker-room guy either.   

Rondo is well known around the league for havig not such a positive attitude, and for being a little selfish and arrogant.

So, if anybody has the personality problem...I suspect it's Rondo...though I obviously have no proof of this.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #143 on: January 30, 2013, 02:34:00 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I've seen Terry frustrated a few times already when he's open in the corner and the pass is not going to him, even on those games when he's actually hitting his shots.

This.  Terry doesn't look free and comfortable at all in this offense...

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #144 on: January 30, 2013, 02:42:36 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I can't take this nonsense about "touches" anymore.  The best offensive players on the team get the most touches.  Call me insane, but that sounds about right to me. 

The Celtics are actually one of the teams that spread the rock around the most compared to most other NBA teams. 

Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

It's not about who gets the MOST touches.  It's a no-brainer that Pierce and KG are going to get the most plays run for them.

The problem isn't that, the problem is that Rondo often blatantly ignored the other players on the team.  I've lost count of the number of times Rondo has forced a bad pass to a tightly defended Pierce/KG when there has been a WIDE OPEN Terry, Lee or Green in the corner.  Very few of those times has it led to a score. 

I think everybody here has noticed that our new guys look more active when Rondo isn't there.  They move more without the ball, they attack more, they shoot more freely and they just look like they are having fun out there. When Rondo is there they all kinda look like they have been demoted to just being catch-and-shoot guys. 

I feel like Rondo doesn't really trust the new guys yet, which I understand because he hasn't gone to war with them yet, but I think this is hurting the confidence of the other guys on the team.

As I've said many times in the past, there are no issues with Rondo's talent - he is without a double a top 5 or top 10 talent in this league.  The question mark is about his mentality and his attitude.  He reminds me a lot of Allen Iverson back in the day - superstar talent, but an attitude that not even a mother could love. 

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #145 on: January 30, 2013, 02:53:29 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

That's kinda funny that you think that, because every since Bradley returned that second unit has pretty much been keeping us in games.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2013, 02:57:20 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Williams is a great offensive facilitator. Lots of players have complained about him. His coach retired because of him. Doesn't make him less of a great PG.

Williams probably deserved the complaints too...

It's not about how great a player you are.  Everybody agree's Rondo is a great player.

The mentality of a player can be just as important to success as the ability.

As for Jordan and Kobe, people may have complained about those guys...but nobody has EVERY complained about their work ethic or their will to win every single night.

Rondo on the other hand...

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #147 on: January 30, 2013, 03:07:12 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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[quote author=Yoki_IsTheName
Excellent post.

The fact that Paul and KG has no complains makes Lee's more ridiculous. If he can get himself open a lot he probably got more touches. Even then, his role is not to shoot a ton of shots, no reason to complain about touches, at all.
[/quote]

1. Of course they aren't complaining about touches, Paul and KG are the only guys Rondo passes to!

2. KG reportedly has had issues with Rondo in the past, but over time learned to respect him

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #148 on: January 30, 2013, 03:16:03 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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1st, I'm highly skeptical about his supposed "unhappiness".

However, if he is, it's his fault/problem.  Lee is a role player, always has been, and will be.  The job of a role player is to do whatever the team needs him to do to compliment the stars.  Did he really think he was going to come here and get however many shots he pleased?

I can promise you, Danny will not be letting guys like Lee dictate what happens with the teams best player.

If there are enough guys 'like Lee' on the team, then you may be wrong.

I'm sorry to say but basketball is a team game.  If half of your team isn't happy / effective when playing with one specific individual, it's a big problem. 

It's just like any other job.  If you have a team of good and happy workers and one of those workers has trouble geting along with the others, you get rid of that guy.

If half of your team is unhappy because they hate working with their manager, then for the sake of team efficiency you seriously need to consider that the problem may be the manager...and you may need to consider getting a new one.

Why?  Because if half of your team has a problem with your mananger and you fire them and rehire, then chances are half the new guys are going to have problems with the manager too.  Wouldn't you rather just fire the manager, and then everybody in the team is happy?

If the 'big guy' in your team is causing unhapinness amoung the team, and this unhappiness is causing the team to not perform at their best, then you need to get to the root of the problem and get rid of the 'big guy'.   You can't just apply a bandaid by constantly ditching and rehiring the other guys in the team...because then you have no team loyalty, you never build chemistry, and nobody wants to play for you.

Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
« Reply #149 on: January 30, 2013, 03:23:18 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

Actually, he's right.

On potential talent alone, we are easilly a top 4 team in the East.  The only other teams you could even make an argument for are Miami, Brooklyn and New York. 

Our level of talent on paper is FAR superior to thatof Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana.

Also we're talking about talent, not age.  KG is every bit as productive on a per minute basis as Josh Smith, and Pierce is every bit as productive on a per minute basis as Luol Deng or Joe Johnson.  Rondo has a level of talent up there with anybody in the East not named Lebron James. 

New York is probably the only team in the East with a bench that can compete with Barbosa, Terry, Lee, Green, Sullinger and Wilcox.  5 of those 6 guys would be starters or 6th men on a lot of teams. 

There is absolutely no question about it that our team is strongly underperforming in relation to the amount of talent we have.  The Bucks and Rose-less Bulls should not be witin 4 games of our record.

 

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