Author Topic: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal  (Read 6178 times)

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Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

  I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.

  But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.

From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility

His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that

  Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.

2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him


2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead

2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend

2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.

-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home


Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown

Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4.  He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta).  Boston was 1-3 in those games.  He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami).  Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.

Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.
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Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2013, 10:43:38 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

  I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.

  But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.

From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility

His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that

  Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.

2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him


2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead

2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend

2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.

-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home


Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown

Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4.  He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta).  Boston was 1-3 in those games.  He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami).  Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.

Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.

  The way "playoff" Rondo is regarded is fairly accurate. The way the perception is characterized might not be.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2013, 10:48:56 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

  I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.

  But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.

From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility

His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that

  Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.

2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him


2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead

2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend

2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.

-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home


Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown

Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4.  He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta).  Boston was 1-3 in those games.  He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami).  Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.

Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.

This is silly.  Rondo has played in 92 total playoff games so far in his career.  Yes, of course, he's had some sub-par and even downright terrible ones.  When I go through the box scores for the playoff games of Lebron James and Chris Paul, for example, (or any other top player who has played in a lot of playoff games) I can find you some real stinkers for them as well.

This is why when we talk about how good players are and how well they have performed, we look at the holistic picture.  When you look at Rondo, if you are being objective, you have to admit that he's been an excellent playoff guy overall for his relatively short career to date.


Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2013, 04:33:31 PM »

Offline action781

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Here's a question that I just started thinking about...

Rondo is truly one of the most spectacular passers in the NBA (I could listen to an argument of anywhere #1-#5), so I wonder why we don't get more backdoor cuts from him.  It seems that Bradley is the only beneficiary of this.  I can't understand why more players like Lee and Green don't make these cuts.  Even KG used to get back door lobs more frequently than he does now.  What's up?
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Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2013, 04:34:45 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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i have said for a while now, i think rondo is overrated in boston and underrated nationally.  i think his true value lies in the middle

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2013, 05:01:58 PM »

Offline blink

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

  I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.

  But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.

From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility

His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that

  Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.

2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him


2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead

2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend

2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.

-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home


Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown

Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4.  He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta).  Boston was 1-3 in those games.  He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami).  Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.

Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.

This is silly.  Rondo has played in 92 total playoff games so far in his career.  Yes, of course, he's had some sub-par and even downright terrible ones.  When I go through the box scores for the playoff games of Lebron James and Chris Paul, for example, (or any other top player who has played in a lot of playoff games) I can find you some real stinkers for them as well.

This is why when we talk about how good players are and how well they have performed, we look at the holistic picture.  When you look at Rondo, if you are being objective, you have to admit that he's been an excellent playoff guy overall for his relatively short career to date.

I agree with this.  Let's look at Rondo's stats from the 19 playoff games he played last year:

17.3 ppg / 11.9 apg / 6.7 rpg

Looks like some seriously good numbers to me.  Better numbers than Chris Paul, and CP3 didn't play nearly as many games.


Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2013, 05:39:09 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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This is ridiculous.  You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo?  I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo.  That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?

The only thing that annoys me about Rondo is that some consider him to be this super-dooper star.  The only reason Rondo can be THIS team's best player and still give us a shot to win is because he has complimentary pieces around him.  Good shooters and defenders are what make Rondo's game so effective.

Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.


Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2013, 05:44:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2013, 05:51:21 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.

He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2013, 06:02:58 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.

He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.

I think he made a valid point.  While it's debateable whether Rondo was the best player on the 2009-10 team, I don't think it's fair to conclude that this team was not a championship level team.  No, technically they didn't win, but they came within 10 minutes of winning and were without their starting center. Only lost by 4 points -- and Rondo singlehandedly got them to 2 points and then nearly stole the ball before C's had to foul.  That's championship level. That said, he had competition for best player.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2013, 06:06:44 PM »

Offline eugen

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This is ridiculous.  You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo?  I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo.  That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?

You are absolutely wrong. Rondo is a great player bit is not superstar in order to lift up the team and to decide for wining a championship. Cs all these 5 years, has been a great team because of great teamwork, especially a great defence team. In 2008 Cs won the title because they have been better team in general, and not a team with single players.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2013, 06:10:55 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.

He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.

I think he made a valid point.  While it's debateable whether Rondo was the best player on the 2009-10 team, I don't think it's fair to conclude that this team was not a championship level team.  No, technically they didn't win, but they came within 10 minutes of winning and were without their starting center. Only lost by 4 points -- and Rondo singlehandedly got them to 2 points and then nearly stole the ball before C's had to foul.  That's championship level. That said, he had competition for best player.

No, i think its unfair to say a team that didn't win a championship is a championship team. Idc how close you get. If you don't get it done then you don't get it done.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2013, 06:12:49 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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This is ridiculous.  You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo?  I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo.  That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?

You are absolutely wrong. Rondo is a great player bit is not superstar in order to lift up the team and to decide for wining a championship. Cs all these 5 years, has been a great team because of great teamwork, especially a great defence team. In 2008 Cs won the title because they have been better team in general, and not a team with single players.

You oughtta read the rest of my post, pal.  I said the reason Rondo can be the best player on this team is because the pieces around him complement the way he plays.  I know the only way we win is if we play like a team, thanks for stating the obvious.

I also said Rondo is not a superstar, so that's two things you missed by not reading my post.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2013, 06:18:20 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team.  He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.

By jump shot, I mean a consistent, you-can't-leave-me-open-anymore shot, and then you might as well add in range out to the three point line.  I know this is a lot to ask, but do you know how much easier it would be if Rondo had range?  Man, I wish Rondo could get that.  Then, he'd be near unstoppable.

I'd argue that the '10 run was a total team effort.  Everyone had their moments, whether it was the Big Three, Shrek and Donkey, even Sheed.  I'll admit those playoffs proved to me Rondo was "the real deal."

Last year, I give 50% of the credit to KG, and 50% to Rondo.  We needed both to play at unbelievable levels, and without that we'd have never made it out of the first round,  people forget that monstrous Game 6 vs. Atlanta.  KG was Minnesota KG.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2013, 06:30:45 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit .   Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.

The rest of this season will be fascinating.  There's a solid chance we play better without him.  I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.   

I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses.  The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives.  If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint.  Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.   

Let's just say this has the potential to be very interesting.  We have guys who can generate offense.  We could go out and get a post up player or allow kg to pound down low more often...  We don't need to start Bass.  We don't need to make up for the fact our point guard is a semi liability off the ball...   

That combined with the fact it clears up our guard clog (no more dnps for Barbosa), moves the 6'2 180 pound Bradley to PG, ensures our two best defensive guards are starting and moves terry to the 6th man role he belongs in... It could be very interesting

I can't think of a team who has ever won a title due to having a super good passer.  At least with Nash it was more plausible, because off the ball he doubled as arguably the best shooter in the world

 

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