Author Topic: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal  (Read 6328 times)

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Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 08:05:35 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum.  At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league.  He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table.   It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on.  Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score.   It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose.  Rose was their entire offense. 

As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.

Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team.  More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there.  Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court.   If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.

Completely agree.

There are deficits to be absorbed in leadership, for one, and rebounding.

However, I'm intrigued to see what might happen - or might not happen - with this offense with the ball moving more. Having coached and played the position, it drives me nuts to see the ball stopped in certain spots on the floor.

And ask yourself this: How many times over the last few years has TV shifted to a shot of Doc in a huddle imploring "get the ball moving."

Not to mention defensively. The backcourt defense Sunday was spectacular, and let's face it: Rondo doesn't play hard often enough on the defensive end.

This team might crater, but I have a notion that it isn't going to crater.

As for overrating players in general, it's the nature of the beast. One of the big reasons I stepped away from the game is an entire generation of young people raised on the notion that basketball is an individual game.

They measure players by the quality of their dunk, a facet of the game that could not be more meaningless, when the beauty of the game is found in a pinpoint pass, a well-set screen, a physical rebound.

I reject that notion in total, and it makes me furious.

The people who think that never had the pleasure of watching the beauty of John Wooden's UCLA teams. He had individual stars every bit as bright as any playing today, and those teams were NOT unbeatable because they were loaded up with "me" types.

They were unbeatable because they played the game as a team, the way it was meant to be played.

As a result, the purest form of basketball out there today is the women's game, where team play and fundamentals are crucial to success.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:14:20 PM by CoachBo »

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 08:09:17 PM »

Offline action781

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Oh, come on now! The C's are not better without Rondo. They are probably not a lot worse without regular season Rondo, but they will certainly miss playoffs Rondo.

This is how I feel.  Rondo's regular season play frankly p---es me off.  And that's why I think   the celts will be OK without him for the regular season.

But playoff Rondo is a top 10 player in the NBA I believe.  We are going to miss him terribly.

I do think Rondo's overrated.  Not because of what he's capable of (see above), but because he doesn't bring it all season long.  He's a top 10 player when he's at his best.  But at least 30 games of the regular season he will play like he doesn't belong in the top 40.  Rondo, over the course of the regular season, doesn't play much better than Brandon Jennings if any.  You can bet he'd torch him in the playoffs though.  That's what makes people's opinions of him so polarizing.
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Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 08:24:17 PM »

Offline Chief Macho

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rondo outplayed everyone on the court last season vs miami for at least 2 games.   you don't lose someone like that and still have even hail mary prayer to win a title.   this team can get to the playoffs,  maybe win some games.   that's all.   it could be argued this is what the ceiling was anyway,  but their chance at making real noise is over.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 08:26:20 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I think without Rondo, we'll find ways to win in the regular season.  But in the playoffs, much like KG in 09, we'll be looking at an early exit.  Honestly,  there's no other point guard in the NBA (yes, that includes the infallible Chris Paul) that I'd rather have for a playoff run. You guys can debate and rip each other to shreds over what he does in the regular season,  but what he brings to the table in the playoffs can't be replaced.
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Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 08:30:00 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Oh, come on now! The C's are not better without Rondo. They are probably not a lot worse without regular season Rondo, but they will certainly miss playoffs Rondo.

This is how I feel.  Rondo's regular season play frankly p---es me off.  And that's why I think   the celts will be OK without him for the regular season.

But playoff Rondo is a top 10 player in the NBA I believe.  We are going to miss him terribly.

I do think Rondo's overrated.  Not because of what he's capable of (see above), but because he doesn't bring it all season long.  He's a top 10 player when he's at his best.  But at least 30 games of the regular season he will play like he doesn't belong in the top 40.  Rondo, over the course of the regular season, doesn't play much better than Brandon Jennings if any.  You can bet he'd torch him in the playoffs though.  That's what makes people's opinions of him so polarizing.

Yeah i sometimes forget regular season rondo and playoff rondo are two completely different people which also p--es me off. I could do without regular season rondo all season and not care much.

His defense was one of the main reasons we were losing games. Not to mention the way he dominates the ball, annoying. We won't really see how much we miss rondo until the playoffs start. That being said i agree he is overrated in a sense.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 08:31:44 PM »

Online BballTim

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The people who think that never had the pleasure of watching the beauty of John Wooden's UCLA teams. He had individual stars every bit as bright as any playing today, and those teams were NOT unbeatable because they were loaded up with "me" types.

They were unbeatable because they played the game as a team, the way it was meant to be played.

  Well put.


Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2013, 08:32:02 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

Team didn't skip a beat in kgs first few years when he missed an abundance of time...pretty sure we were undefeated for a good stretch with scalabrine started for him...pretty sure the Chicago bulls have currently done fine without Derrick rose and a more historical perspective in Michael Jordans first retirement the bulls cruised the whole regular season....happens all the time in the NBA...not sustainable in the playoffs sorry

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2013, 08:42:57 PM »

Offline staticcc

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Zach Lowe has an interesting take on this. To quote,

"The shaky jumper means Rondo is of little use off the ball. This is one reason Boston has been unable to properly incorporate Jason Terry, shooting less often than ever and putting up the sort of usage rate we'd expect from a limited offensive player like LARRY SANDERS!"

Read more at http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8890026/with-rajon-rondo-season-boston-celtics-do-now

I think the guy defending Rondo is always free to help on our shooters because they leave Rondo open. This causes bad shot selection for other wing players. When a PG (Lee or Terry or even Barbosa) can shoot, his man has to remain honest which allows the SG or SF to only care about beating his man and not worry about Rondo's man helping on him.
"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Bunk

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2013, 09:24:58 PM »

Offline ejk3489

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.

For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)

Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.

For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.

But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2013, 09:34:21 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum.  At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league.  He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table.   It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on.  Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score.   It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose.  Rose was their entire offense. 

As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.

Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team.  More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there.  Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court.   If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.

very well said. Have to agree with all of that.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2013, 09:41:11 PM »

Offline soap07

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Overrated or not, the C's just lost their best player for the year. I actually [edit: CAN'T] believe the stuff I'm reading about how we're better off without him. How many teams get better after losing their best player? Especially on a team that was already doing poorly? Was Rondo overrated on this board? Probably. Is he better than Paul, Deron, Rose, Westbrook and arguably Kyrie? In my opinion, no - but you can't lose that kind of talent, not replace it with something comparable, and expect to tread water over a long period of time.


Quote
As a result, the purest form of basketball out there today is the women's game, where team play and fundamentals are crucial to success.

Please name me the last NBA team that won a championship in which team play and fundamentals were not crucial to its success.



Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2013, 09:42:34 PM »

Online blink

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.

For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)

Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.

For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.

But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.

Finally someone who got annoyed enough to look up some actual Rondo playoff stats.  Thank you!  I agree 100% with this and mentioned it in two other treads as well.  Good luck with having CLee, Jet, or AB taking over games, dropping triple doubles, or single-handedly keeping us in games when our other great "scorers" can't seem to produce. 

I have nothing against CL, Jet, or AB.  I really like all of them as players, especially CL and AB.  But thinking they are going to bring the same production to the playoffs as Rondo seems seriously flawed to me.

I would love it if the C's would win it all this year and prove me wrong.  I would eat everyone's crow, but you don't lose a player like Rondo and then think, ok, since he is gone we will do better.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2013, 09:59:58 PM »

Online BballTim

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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out

We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something

It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly

  I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.

  But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2013, 10:30:26 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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There is some truth to both sides of the argument.

Based on his talent and ability, Rondo absolutely is as good as people claim.  He's a top 2 PG in the league hands down, and probably a top 10 player overall. 

However based on his every day production, Rondo is massively overrated.  Frankly he gets outplayed far too often by opposing PG's who have no right to be able to outplay him.  There are far too many games where Rondo plays with a "minimum effort" mentality, and he often plays with a selfish arrogance that seems to hurt his teamates more than it helps. 

Rondo is IMHO the best player in the league at connecting difficult passes, seeing the floor and orchestrating an offense...and yet too many times I see him force up bad shots when there is a wide open Jeff Green or Jason Terry in the corner.

Rondo used to be IMHO the best on-ball defender in the league at the PG position due to his length, his big hands and his agility...and yet far too often he gambles for steals, allowing his defensive assignment to go right by him for an easy layup.

Rondo is one of the best PGs in the league at attacking the basket - with his strength and explosive quickness he can blow by anybody pretty much at will, and he's very good at finishig around the basket...and yet he barely ever attacks.

Rondo is one of the best players in the league at leading a fast break thanks to his end-to-end speed, court vision, passing ability and ability to finish...and yet far to often he slows it down and holds the ball for long periods of time, allowing the defense to get set. 

The problem with Rondo is not his game, it's his attitude. Rondo is beyond confident - he is cocky.  He knows full well that he can dominate any player in the league when he wants to, but he also knows that he can play with 70% effort and still put up his numbers...so he seems to believe that putting 100% effort is wasteful in a 'regular' game when 70% effort is sufficient to get the job done.

As others here have stated, when Rondo is in "Playoff" mode or "National Televised" mode his play is a massive contributer to our success.  However, when he's in "Passive" mode he has little if any positive impact on the team - you could replace him with any decent PG in the league and it wouldn't make a difference.  In fact, in those situations repalcing him with any decent PG may even make us better.

The problem here is that this season he has been in "Passive" mode far more often then he is in "Playoff" mode - I'd say the ratio is probably 4:1 if I had to hazard a guess.  That means roughly 75% of the time he has a nagative or neutral impact on the team.  This is made all the more obvious by the fact that he's had a negative on/off net rating for most of this season.  This is why we have been able to beat good teams this season without Rondo.

Another factor to consider is that we have a number of guards (Lee, Terry, Barbosa, Bradley) who are all very skilled players, but we've never really had the chance to see what they are really capapble of because Rondo has played close to 40 minutes per game, so they have mostly all been sharing the SG minutes and a couple of scrap PG minutes.  Barbosa is a 'spark plug' type player who's very skilled at exploding with short notice - but Lee, Terry and Bradley are all players who would probably play better if they got more time on the court. 

It's not just the minutes either, it's the roles. Rondo was always the key ball handlder for the 35-40 minutes he spends on the court, and his way is usually to hold on the ball for a long time while a play develops, then pass it off to the shooter last minute.  The other guards never got a whole lot of time with the ball in their hands, so every one of those guys might get a little bit more confident and comfortable with handling the ball now that they will be doing it more often.  The result is that hopefuly we will have 4 ball handlers on our team rather than one.

so yes, Rondo is an outstanding basketball player.  He probably is the most TALENTED player on our team, because Pierce and KG get a lot of their success from pure hustle and hard work - for Rondo a lot of the time it seems to come easy because he's just so talented.  Because of all the above reasons though, I just don't think we will be tha tmuch worse off without him...at least until we get in the playoffs, at which time I've no doubt we'll miss him.

Re: Rondo is being put too high on a pedestal
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2013, 10:32:07 PM »

Offline vinnie

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day 2, and the Bizarro World Celtics Blog continues. I can't wait until we get back to the real world blog.

 

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