Author Topic: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo  (Read 7723 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2013, 09:07:44 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • Antoine Walker
  • *****
  • Posts: 5133
  • Tommy Points: 328
Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.

Just another reason Sully should be starting and playing as many minutes as possible.  Bass should be playing 15-20 minutes and ideally would be traded prior to the trade deadline FOR ANY EXPIRING CONTRACT.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2013, 09:14:57 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26143
  • Tommy Points: 984
Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.

Just another reason Sully should be starting and playing as many minutes as possible.  Bass should be playing 15-20 minutes and ideally would be traded prior to the trade deadline FOR ANY EXPIRING CONTRACT.
Sullinger is playing as many minutes as Doc can put him out there for the most part, his foul trouble really limits how much he can play.

Go look at his game log, the last 10-20 games Doc is throwing him out there as much as he can it seems to me.

(well and Miami makes it tough to play him as Jeff Green is a much better match when they don't play two bigs)

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2013, 10:35:32 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22485
  • Tommy Points: 1034
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

  It's not an estimate it's a total fabrication. First of all Rondo's at or near the top of the league in crunch time assists every year so it's not true that he does nothing for the offense late in games. Also, check out 82games, they have production by position rankings for the league. Our pg differential is 4th best in the league and it was 2nd for much of the year. Your claims of Rondo being badly outscored by other point guards are completely baseless.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2013, 11:07:37 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11950
  • Tommy Points: 1141
Yeah, the badly outscored notion is completely overplayed. Rondo's problems has always been consistency in keeping opposing PGs off the paint, not necessarily because they scored, but because it forced our big guys to step up and leave their defensive assignments open.

The other problem with Rondo's consistency is his tendency to run the offense ineffectively in the 4th quarter, particularly when we have the lead... walking the ball up the floor, milking the clock, often leaving us shooting bad shots at the last second, or playmaking too much in a way that keeps us strictly as a jump shooting team.

He improved on both of these areas during last year's playoffs, but it's always been my biggest knock on Rondo's play, and it still creeps up too often for my comfort.

Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2013, 11:58:48 AM »

Offline Spicoli

  • Rajon Rondo
  • Posts: 873
  • Tommy Points: 111
No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG

I agree. I still think Garnett is our best player. If Garnett was out for the season then i would say blow it up, but as long as Garnett plays we have a small chance. If Rondo is the teams best player, that means the team is in serious trouble. Rondo cannot be the best player on a championship team.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2013, 12:20:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22485
  • Tommy Points: 1034
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher, he was hampered by injuries both times we were in the finals and that hampered his effectiveness. And I would assume that your list of elite point guards wouldn't include Paul, Williams, Westbrook or Nash. None of them are noticeably more productive than normal when they face Fisher.

  Rondo always fares poorly on these boards when compared to other players because people see him play and actually witness his failures and compare him to assumptions of how well other players must play because of their reputations.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2013, 12:24:29 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26143
  • Tommy Points: 984
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2013, 12:35:37 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22485
  • Tommy Points: 1034
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3. My overall point was that a large percentage of criticisms comparing Rondo to other players are generally based on assumptions about the other players based on their reputations.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2013, 12:41:11 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11950
  • Tommy Points: 1141
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26143
  • Tommy Points: 984

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3.
Eh, he was better at home that entire playoffs.

Home 38 MPG 12 PPG 42% FG 8.7 APG 5.3 RPG 2.4 SPG 1.5 TOPG
14 games

Away 28 MPG 8 PPG 38% FG 4.2 APG 2.7 RPG 0.9 SPG 2.1 TOPG
12 games

Rondo was still a "role player" type that year and it was his first playoffs.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Global Moderator
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26143
  • Tommy Points: 984
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.
Huh? They couldn't leave Fisher on Rondo because Rondo did destroy him. Except its Rondo, when he destroys someone its not necessarily to score. Just as often it was layups and quality shots for the rest of the team.

So I guess if you meant that Rondo doesn't try and be a dominant scorer when he has an advantage, sure I guess. Especially not in 2009-2010.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2013, 12:56:40 PM »

Offline RJ87

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3965
  • Tommy Points: 124
  • Let's Go Celtics!
Yeah, the badly outscored notion is completely overplayed. Rondo's problems has always been consistency in keeping opposing PGs off the paint, not necessarily because they scored, but because it forced our big guys to step up and leave their defensive assignments open.

The other problem with Rondo's consistency is his tendency to run the offense ineffectively in the 4th quarter, particularly when we have the lead... walking the ball up the floor, milking the clock, often leaving us shooting bad shots at the last second, or playmaking too much in a way that keeps us strictly as a jump shooting team.

He improved on both of these areas during last year's playoffs, but it's always been my biggest knock on Rondo's play, and it still creeps up too often for my comfort.

Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

The 4th quarter issue isn't purely on Rondo.  I feel like we still force feed the ball into Paul's hands down the stretch of games, and its not nearly as effective now as it was in 07/08.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2013, 01:09:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22485
  • Tommy Points: 1034
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.

  The only extended time I can recall Fisher on Rondo in the playoffs is the 2nd half of game 2 in 2010, when they put Kobe on Ray to cool him down. Rondo had a triple double that game, with 13 points, 6 boards and a couple of assists in the 2nd half including 10 points down the stretch.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2013, 01:29:44 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8833
  • Tommy Points: 630
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.

  The only extended time I can recall Fisher on Rondo in the playoffs is the 2nd half of game 2 in 2010, when they put Kobe on Ray to cool him down. Rondo had a triple double that game, with 13 points, 6 boards and a couple of assists in the 2nd half including 10 points down the stretch.

Also this happened  ;D

And when I'm rich and meet Bob Hope
We'll shoot some golf and shoot some dope

Quote
Can't read the entire thread but cone people.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2013, 02:16:01 PM »

Offline eugen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1193
  • Tommy Points: 34
Folks. The way that Rondo plays in both offensive or defensive, does not help a lot a team like Cs where the biggest asset always is the power of the group. Is not a coincidence that Cs wins and play better more often, when Rondo does not play. I gave you examples of wins Vs NYK and HEAT. This team from 2008 did not have superstar players like Koby or Lebron, but this team had excellent players to join a great power of the grout. In other hand, there is a contradiction:  Doc is a great defensive coach, and Rondo is a great offensive PG. Nobody is trying to underrate the skills of Rondo. Is just underlining the fact that maybe he is not the right PG for this team (imagine to have Westbrook instead of Rondo)

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog