Author Topic: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo  (Read 8022 times)

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Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2013, 01:58:55 AM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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No, although I'd say we play about the same.

Players get more touches without Rondo which causes them to feel more involved and gives them a better chance of getting hot.

This also consequently inspires them to play harder on defense.

We get into our plays quicker without Rondo pounding the rock, and go from one play to the next quicker because we don't have to get the ball back into his hands.

It makes our offense much more unpredictable, which makes the other team think harder on defense and make more mistakes.

Pierce and KG are both elite passers that are perfectly capable of running an offense.  With Rondo they are almost reduced to pure shooters/scorers.  When they are making plays for others it really opens up more and easier scoring opportunities for them like they've been used to throughout their careers (and in 08).

Rondo's excellent shooting has been a huge asset for us this year, but it still doesn't do as much for an offense as a historic floor-spacer like Terry that can keep defenders from helping off and going under picks.

No, we aren't better, but I think with some effort we can easily maintain our current level (a middle of the pack regular season team that can beat any team 4 times in the playoffs).

The biggest loss will be his rebounding, which everyone will have to step up, mainly Sullinger, KG, Green, and Lee.

Leaves a smaller margin for error, but this isn't anything like losing KG in 09.  This isn't even as devastating as losing KG or arguably Pierce now (our best defender and scorer).

TP, agree with this. Pierce and KG not playing has more of an impact than Rondo not playing

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2013, 02:18:57 AM »

Offline kgainez

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Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

no Green
But AB can

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2013, 02:32:55 AM »

Offline raynman

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Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2013, 02:36:44 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..

Doc's fault.

Also the old players need plays ran for them. So does Bass. Plus they don't like running.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2013, 03:05:39 AM »

Offline dmopower

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I agree Rondo is an extremly talented player with incredible stats. And few teams could be better without him {when he plays to his strengths}.

 Several people have mentioned that our defense is better when Rondo is out and I agree, Rondo gets disinterested in Defense. Courtney Lee and Bradley both stay in front of their man better thus putting less pressure on our bigs to rotate. This is especially helpful of Sullinger as his rotations are a tad slow. Keeping our bigs out of foul trouble is a huge issue as we need every rebound we can get.

 On offense I also agree that everyone gets more touches and we move from play to play much more quickly thus making the defense think much more than just watching rondo pound the ball for 10 seconds. Harder for teams to prepare for us.

 It was also mentioned that we can run our offense through Pierce and KG. This also is correct. Both are above average playmakers and their not being utilized to their potential or to our teams advantage.

 I personaly think Rondo would be better comming off of the bench with the intent of being super aggressive.

 All in all we will have no choice but to wait and see how things unfold This should be fun guys! lol
blind optimist or GENIUS

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2013, 04:16:27 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:48:34 AM by Yoki_IsTheName »
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Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2013, 07:42:59 AM »

Online triboy16f

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Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

Quote
Carmelo Anthony: "I want to win. I don't care about the money"

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2013, 08:03:54 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

Im not saying Rondo is the main scoring threat. I'm saying he creates shots for others, hence we do not play better without him.

His court vision is undeniable, add the fact that he can get to the rim and attract double teams. Every time he gets to the paint it opens up Green, Lee, Bradley, KG, you know what I mean.

The others, not only could get to the rim on a consistent basis, they do not see the open guys once they get the defense to commit to them. They force bad shots, sometimes they cant shoot at all.

Im not implying that Rondo is going to drop buckets. What I'm saying is, the others needs Rondo to score more. There's a reason he averages 11 assist, he finds open guys for easy shots. Without him these guys are stuck either creating for themselves, which most of them cant do, or not shoot at all.

And BTW, Rondo is clutch in the 4th, so yeah, I think for our team, he is.
"The rim is looking bigger and bigger every game." - PP

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Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2013, 08:29:54 AM »

Offline eugen

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No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2013, 08:40:07 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG

Disagree.

He's the most important player. But Rondo is the best player on this team, hands down. I mean no disrespect, but I believe anybody who disagrees is a Rondo detractor. That's just my opinion.
"The rim is looking bigger and bigger every game." - PP

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Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2013, 08:42:30 AM »

Online SHAQATTACK

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A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »

Online Fafnir

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Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..

Doc's fault.

Also the old players need plays ran for them. So does Bass. Plus they don't like running.
When you don't have anyone who can create shots, you have to run a lot of dribble hand offs and motion sets like Doc does. More people are thus touching the ball every possession.

The problem is that this sort of action isn't all that tough to defend, especially when its all you really have.

Can Doc find things that work for Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa that will give our offense enough variety to work? Its a massive coaching challenge.

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2013, 08:47:57 AM »

Online Fafnir

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A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?
Well one thing I noticed this morning, the entire difference in our offensive rating when he's on the court and off the court is explained by our offensive rebounding percentage.

Its 19.7 when he's on the court and 24.2 when he's off the court. What that tells me is that Sullinger has been awesome for us and Bass has sucked.

Edit: I just realized they don't give free throw rate and free throw accuracy in on/off. Those could also effect offensive rating.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:53:16 AM by Fafnir »

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2013, 08:57:09 AM »

Offline eugen

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A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?

Rondo lef Cs in middle season 20-23, in 8th place. So, I am sure Cs will have better score without Rondo. Not only better score but better play in general

Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2013, 09:00:48 AM »

Online Fafnir

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Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.

 

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