Author Topic: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,  (Read 2696 times)

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Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 02:00:31 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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About the optimism . .. I think it obviously has a lot to do with ending a 6 game skid where we should have won a few games ... and about having our biggest win of the season yesterday.

That game had the playoff atmosphere and was a huge statement to go toe to toe with the best in the NBA and have the fortitude to win in double OT.

If we start winning, the optimism will get out of hand. If we go back to losing, it will disappear quickly.

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 02:19:56 PM »

Offline eugen

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It's a real bummer that Rondo went down, but I think the Celtics are in a great position after his injuries, for a number of reasons.

First, the rebuilding is coming whether we like it or not. In an odd way, Rondo's injury kind of "opens the door" a little more management to more easily justify whatever path they want to take. I see three main options, all of which have good possibilities.

#1 - Complete blow up mode

You could go full rebuild mode by the trade deadline.

A) Approach Pierce and KG and ask them if they want to ride it out or if they'd like you to seek trades for them to legit contenders. Take a look at the top 5-6 teams in the Western conference - you could get some decent returns in with one key young player and picks.

B) If you think Melo has any chance of being an NBA center at any level in the NBA, bring him up and start force feeding him minutes now, like a lot of other young players get on bad teams - get the process going. If you think he has no chance, get it over with and package him in a trade.

C) Significantly increase the minutes for Bradley, Green, Lee, Sully, Melo, etc...

D) you probably go the lottery this year, maybe you get lucky and get a real blue chipper.

E) Depending on who you get as young players, you might also have Cap Flex if the trades are done with an expiring to make things work...

#2 - Mid Major adjustments

A) You could make a mid major move - try to get a Josh Smith level player without blowing up the team. Or a bit smaller move like trying to get a young point like Bledsoe to fill in Rondo's shoes until he gets back.

B) Make another run with this team, as is. We'll end up making another good run.

#3 - Stand pat

Don't underestimate a team that trots out a starting lineup of:

KG / Collins / Melo / Wilcox
Sully / Bass / Wilcox
Pierce / Green
Lee / Jet
Bradley / Barbosa

1. That starting lineup may not be point guard driven / dominant anymore, but those are five tough guys both mentally and physically.

2. Rondo is incredible but he dominates the ball. So this team will be different and we might be pleasantly surprised with some of those differences - just as much as we will have some disappointments...

3. When you lose a dominant player, other guys tend to step into the void and you find things out about them you didn't know before, good and bad. Guys might feel freed up a bit to take more responsibility and bigger roles.

4. That bench is still quite good

5. lastly, this team might gel differently, kind of coalescing behind Rondo's injury to become something better than we initially expect.   
 

Whatever option is taken above, we will either see our young guys being thrown to the wolves and watch them develop - or we'll see a grizzled vet team, perhaps with some mid major to minor changes via mid ticket trades, or a stand pat vet team throwing down with everything they've got.

Meanwhile, Rondo's on the mend.

Don't get down, get excited. We're going to watch a very interesting story unfold from here on out.

We'll either

Hold on folks. Cs just got a game after losing 6 in a row. Maybe they do not understand yet, that normal season has 82 games. They have to play like yesterday, and fistly to get a spot in PLAYOFF

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 02:37:32 PM »

Offline ejk3489

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nope....the era officially ended with the injury ...I see more  optimism around here today then I did last week...it's mind boggling considering rondo is our best player and one of the leagues premier postseason performers.

it sucks, period

It does suck.  Completely.

But I think the injury has given some people some peace and clarity in the sense that there's no anxiety any longer about where this team is headed or what will happen this season.

The team isn't going to turn things around.  They aren't going to make a deep run.  There will be no championship year.

So you don't have to feel bad or conflicted about not being optimistic.  The team no longer has its best player and top playoff performer.  You aren't going to get bitten in the butt if you lose faith now.

We know where we stand, for sure. 

Now all that is left is to see what happens at the trade deadline.  Frankly I wish the trade deadline were tomorrow afternoon.  I just want to get it over with.

I guess I can understand this...but for me, it makes me even more concerned about where this team is headed. There's uncertainty about how long Rondo's recovery will take and how effective he will be when he finally does return. Not trying to be dramatic, but this could be a career altering injury for him.

Whether you saw Rondo as a trade asset or the teams best player he was the future, and now the Celtics have to plan without him.

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 02:50:28 PM »

Offline Chief

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If this team wants to win, start playing KG heavier minutes.

Nah, it's okay. He can play less, until the playoffs

We are the 8th seed and just lost our best player. What playoff? Did you see the game yesterday? Celtics play really well when KG is on the court.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 02:56:47 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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We are the 8th seed and just lost our best player. What playoff? Did you see the game yesterday? Celtics play really well when KG is on the court.
What eight teams are going to wind up with a better regular season record than us in the Eastern conference?

Miami, New York, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana, Atlanta, Milwaukee. Better than us in the standings. Which of Philly, Toronto, Detroit, Cleveland, Washington, Orlando or Charlotte is supposed to pull ahead? I guess Philly if Bynum magically comes back?

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 03:35:06 PM »

Online LooseCannon

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I guess I can understand this...but for me, it makes me even more concerned about where this team is headed. There's uncertainty about how long Rondo's recovery will take and how effective he will be when he finally does return. Not trying to be dramatic, but this could be a career altering injury for him.

I think a reasonable course would be to have the team in a bit of a holding pattern until it becomes clearer as to how long it will take for Rondo to recover and how effective he will be when he returns, pursuing only those transactions that you would make whether or not the best- or worst-case scenarios occur.
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Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 03:50:13 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Wow.

I definitely respect the opinions posted but I'm kind of surprised by the level of negativity and the lack of confidence in this team to do anything but absolutely "suck" for the rest of the year.

My optimism has nothing to do with a win against Miami or a six game winning streak - those things mean nothing.

My optimism is based on the following:

1. I think this team is way more talented than what it has played so far.

2. When the playoffs start, I think it's a mistake to underestimate Pierce and KG and any Celtics team's heart under the guidance of Doc - say what you will about his rotations or whatever.
* But I also thought last year's team was special - before the all star break.

3. I have a lot of confidence in the mental and physical tenacity of a lineup with KG, Sully, Pierce, Lee and Bradley in it - those guys all play "hard".  There's no quit in any of them.

4. Our bench is also still decent.

But there are other reasons for optimism as well -

1. Rondo is a ball dominant point - and he's great at that. But he has weaknesses as well.

* I think he's often lazy defensively and it causes us a lot of dribble drive issues.

* I think our offense stagnates sometimes with him pounding the ball too much

* I think Rondo is such a dominant player and personality that other guys defer too much to him sometimes. They may now feel freer to be more individually aggressive rather than waiting for Rondo to 'set them up" all the time.

* We may have better flow on offense and better overall team D.

This isn't a knock on Rondo and I would much rather have him playing but just because we now will be a different team without Rondo does not guarantee that we will be a worse one.

What are we, 11-16 with him over the last 27 games?

Yet another reason for optimism is that our options are now more wide open than before.

* If we choose to blow it up there is more of a legit reason to really pursue that path.

I like this team and as far as KG and pierce go I would rather stand pat and ride it out with them this year.

But if "they" wanted a trade, there are plenty of teams who would want them, in a heart beat.

KG or Pierce on the LAC, Denver, Golden State, Memphis, OKC or Dallas would exponentially increase those teams chances of a ring this year - KG because of his defense and Pierce because of his all around game and just their veteran leadership.

How'd you like to play a Memphis team with a front line of Gasol, Randolph and Pierce or a Clipper's team with a front line of Jordan, Griffen and Pierce?

Or an OKC team with a font line of Perkins, Ibaka, KG and Durant or a Golden State team with a front line of Bogut, Lee and KG?

And both of those guys contracts are reasonable for what they bring - Pierce has only one year left.

This Celtics team is "going" to rebuild one way or another. So we're in a great spot if we want to start that now and get some decent chips that we can add to our current crop - or we can stand pat, which is what I'd probably do. And I probably wouldn't trade KG or Pierce unless they wanted it.

We won't get superstars back but we could get a Rudy Gay type player back for Pierce - put him on the wings with Jeff Green, for example.

You'd have to find the right trade for KG - maybe to Denver for Javale McGee and Quincy Miller, try to turn MCGee into a defensive center.

You';d have to find the right deals...those are just top of the head random thoughts.

If no major trades, I expect to see this team make serious noise in the playoffs if they stay together.

I doubt very much that they are crying in their milk in the locker room. I think they're probably preparing for Sacramento.

Even Pierce acknowledged the injury but then immediately said guys are going to have to step up, period.

They're competitors, not babies.

Don't count this team, as is, out - and if we make big trades with KG and Pierce, it just means we're on the way to rebuilding sooner than we expected but it was coming anyway - why not be positive about the transition?

Would it be better to stick our head in the sand and just throw up the white flag?

 
 


Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 03:54:23 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Thinking that losing an all-star level PG to an ACL tear puts us in a favorable position is sticking your head in the sand.

If the team is in a favorable positon after his injury, we were in a more favorable situation before it. (both as a trade asset and as a basketball team)

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 04:39:25 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Thinking that losing an all-star level PG to an ACL tear puts us in a favorable position is sticking your head in the sand.

Yeah.  I respect the opposing opinion, but I certainly don't understand it.

Our franchise PG just injured his ACL.  That particular injury has sapped the athleticism of a lot of players.  For all the small silver linings people can find, I think the risk that Rondo is limited going forward trumps all of them.

Also, from my particular perspective, anything that can result in Pierce and KG being traded is a bad thing.  I don't expect everyone to agree with that, although I do think some fans take annual trips to the Conference Finals for granted.  Once we start rebuilding, it will be considered a massive success if we enjoy a run like we have from 2009 until the present, let alone win a title.


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Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 05:00:58 PM »

Offline PaulPierce34G

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I understand what a lot of posters are saying in terms of the team playing better or differently without Rondo because Rondo has his style and the PG by committee or whatever you want to call it will bring a different style of offensive schematics to the team now.  However, I really can't see the team doing much better than it has up to this point.  Sure, they won yesterday, proving they can beat MIA without Rondo for 1 game but come playoff time, a realistic part of me doesn't believe they can get through 4 rounds of basketball, most likely playing any combination of MIA, NYK, CHI, or IND and then perhaps meeting a team like SA, LAC or OKC in the Finals.  Just too strong of a playoff schedule and a lot of luck needed to get though 4 rounds against teams like these. 

I think a lot of fans are certainly in shock/disbelief about losing Rondo for the year and now having to truly think about whether this is honestly the last we will see of KG or Pierce in Celtics uniforms...Whether their potential departures occur via trade, retirements at the end of the year, Paul getting waived, whatever...who knows?  Perhaps nothing will happen and no moves will be made.  I don't know.  I am not Ainge or Wyc or anyone affiliated with the organization, outside of being a fan. 

I certainly hope I am wrong.  I hope KG and Pierce remain in Boston and both retire together.  I hope this team can pull off some sort of miracle run, but the realistic part in me just isn't buying into it.  Of course, this is simply my opinion and others have their own.  Perhaps someone sees something else I don't.  Whatever the case, just take things 1 game at a time.  Whatever is going to happen is going to happen.  If Ainge deals the face of our franchise over the last 10+ years, there's nothing we can do about it.  Just have to hope for the best and trust in Ainge's workings. 

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 05:36:00 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Perhaps I stated it wrong.

Losing Rondo  =  Not favorable > I think we can all assume this goes without saying. It sucks - it doesn't seem as though that is really even necessary to qualify.

Even with the loss of Rondo - "which sucks" - the organization remains  in good shape to move forward with whatever path they choose. 

I guess for me, choosing to focus on the all the "possible" negative ramifications of a negative incident is a "massive" exercise in futility. To then take a posture that all hope is lost because of that single negative event seems like an equally unproductive posture.

The only option, again fully understanding the elementary fact that losing Rondo "sucks", IMHO, is to focus on what possible positives may come of it.

1. If we choose to blow it up, there are now seemingly more "legitimate" reasons to do so and the decision, if management is inclined to do it, should be less difficult.

2. If we choose to trade KG and Pierce - which I probably wouldn't do - we could get some very nice pieces for them. Not franchise guys, but some good young players. That's a possible positive outcome. KG and Pierce, with the right supporting cast can "maybe" get us 1-2 more ECF semi or finals runs - if they have no injuries. What happens after that? We are going to rebuild sometime...

3. The minutes curve and hopefully therefore the learning curve within the Celtics system for Bradley, Lee, Sully, Green and even Terry and Barbosa just shot through the roof. This could have very "positive" long term implications for their development and for our ability to fully assess their value to the organization. Without a "ball dominant" point guard, other guys are going to have to be more assertive. For example, Ainge spoke with Bradley after the Miami game about what he expected from him in an increased role moving forward. That could have positive results.   

4. We are 11-16 "with" Rondo over the last 27 games. We could have a 14-6 record over the next 20 games moving forward, we have no idea. That would be a possible positive result.

I meant that given the obvious fact that Rondo getting injured "sucks", it would be a mistake to start nailing the coffin shut on this team.

I'm not so sure even with Rondo this year we could get through the semis anyway -       

I don't literally mean that Rondo tearing his knee up was great for the organsization.

Rondo injury  = It sucks = "Boo" "Hoo"

Celtics organization still remains in a favorable position with multiple path forward options on the table.

And I would bet a million bucks the team is already moving
on and focusing on how to use what they have to win games.

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 05:41:08 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Also true that Rondo may not be the same player when he comes back. But that could have some possible positive outcomes:

1. He might focus more on developing his shot

2. He might be less careless with the ball, more controlled - not as many unnecessary turnovers.

3. He might slow his game down more and think it more

I'm feel confident that guys like Rondo - especially since he's young - will figure out a way to just as effective one way or another.

 

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2013, 05:50:39 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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I have a feeling that he'll recover well. He's a freakish athlete and his extraordinarily large hands and long arms aren't going anywhere. His understanding of the game will be better and his vision will still be there.

Adrian Peterson pretty much just proved that beast athletes can come back at a high level quickly. I think Rondo will be fine, but he may have a down year next year as he gets his strength back.

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Yep, agreed. That Rondo is one of those beast type athletes and also that he will figure out the way.

Re: After Rondo injury Celtics in very favorable position,
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 06:58:54 PM »

Online LooseCannon

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Perhaps I stated it wrong.

The title you gave this thread makes it seem like you are in the camp of Rondo being injured is better than Rondo not being injured.

Here are some possibilities:
Rondo is fully healthy by the playoffs next season, and perhaps more mature mentally having gained some perspective from sitting out.
The Celtics use the MLE on an effective big man.
Sullinger and Bradley continue to improve.
At least some of Green, Bass, Lee, and Terry play at a level where they are no longer seen as disappointments.
Fab Melo or a rookie or a cheap free agent pick up gives a surprising contribution.
A full year of playing together with mostly the same players results in a team that executes defense well.

They probably won't all happen, but those are all things that could happen.  If enough of them do, especially the team building the chemistry to play defense more like the Celtics have been in years past, then this team is a potential contender, so long as Garnett and Pierce don't completely fall of a cliff, which is always a danger.

There's enough there to be optimistic that this team has a shot at being a contender next season and enough uncertainty that the more panicky fans are going to run round screaming that the sky is falling and fire Ainge/fire Doc/blow it up.

Those who think this team is hopeless and that Ainge should have dismantled the team this past off-season are wrong.
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