Author Topic: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go  (Read 8057 times)

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Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2013, 10:00:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?

If you look at our roster we actually have a number of capable offensive players - Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Jeff Green.  That may not be the most stacked lineup in the league, but on paper it's right up there in probably the top 5 or 10 in terms of scoring depth. 

Now a great PG is supposed to make everybody around him better - think Stockton, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd.  Does Rondo really do that?  Lets see..

* Bass is having the worst season of his career
* Terry (a great shooter of this generation) is struggling
* Lee struggled at first, and has been up and down since
* Jeff Green doesn't look comfortable at all on offense 
* Pierce is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* KG is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* Barbosa pretty much creates all his own offense

If Rondo is just a great pure PG, why hasn't he been able to get KG and Pierce easy shots?  Why hasn't he been able to get the new guys comfortable playing in the new system?

The announcers during today's game quoted Terry saying that he's strugglng because he's still not used to where he needs to be on plays.  If Rondo is so good at making teammates better, should't he be getting Terry the ball in his hot spots, where he's most comfortable?

If Rondo makes us SO much better with his assists, then why is it that this team, with a very reasoanble amount of offensive talent, is one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA?

If Rondo is so critical to this team, then why is his net on/off rating a -1.3 (according to NBA.com advanced stats)?

Why did we lost the last two games, even through Rondo recorded triple doubles in both?  How come today when Pierce recorded a triple double, we won the game against the best team in the East? 

I love Rondo as a player, but I'm just not convinced that he is the absolutely critical piece to this team everybody believes he is.

So aside from objective opinion, quoting of box scores and pure fanboyism, can anybody here actually produce some type of statistical correlation between Rondo playing, and us winning?

Let me help with some words quoted from an NBA.com article:

Quote
As good as Rondo has been, keep this in mind: Even with him this season, the Celtics ranked 23rd in the NBA in offensive effiency entering Sunday.
 
Rondo entered Sunday ranked 49th in PER among players (and 16th among guards) who have played at least 3,000 minutes in the last four seasons. He ranked tied for 54th overall this season among those with at least 500 minutes played.
 
Celtics With Rajon Rondo
This Season - Per 48 Minutes
 
| Stat    | On Court | Off Court |
| FG %    |  45.9    |   45.2    |
| 3PT%    |  34.7    |   30.6    |
| Ass     |  23.5    |   20.4    |
| Pts     |  93.8    |   90.7    |
| Opp Pts |  95.7    |   90.8    |
 
Entering Sunday

The Celtics are averaging 93.8 points with Rondo on the court this season, and 90.7 points with him off the court. But they're considerably better in terms of what they allow, as noted in the chart on the right.
 
They’ve been able to survive his absence in the past.

The Celtics are 145-95 with Rondo over the last four seasons, but they are also 22-13 without him. He's previously missed as many as 14 games in a season.
 
In that span, they've been a plus-2.9 points per 48 minutes with him on the floor, but plus-4.4 points with him off the floor.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.


Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2013, 10:09:41 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?

If you look at our roster we actually have a number of capable offensive players - Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Jeff Green.  That may not be the most stacked lineup in the league, but on paper it's right up there in probably the top 5 or 10 in terms of scoring depth. 

Now a great PG is supposed to make everybody around him better - think Stockton, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd.  Does Rondo really do that?  Lets see..

* Bass is having the worst season of his career
* Terry (a great shooter of this generation) is struggling
* Lee struggled at first, and has been up and down since
* Jeff Green doesn't look comfortable at all on offense 
* Pierce is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* KG is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* Barbosa pretty much creates all his own offense

If Rondo is just a great pure PG, why hasn't he been able to get KG and Pierce easy shots?  Why hasn't he been able to get the new guys comfortable playing in the new system?

The announcers during today's game quoted Terry saying that he's strugglng because he's still not used to where he needs to be on plays.  If Rondo is so good at making teammates better, should't he be getting Terry the ball in his hot spots, where he's most comfortable?

If Rondo makes us SO much better with his assists, then why is it that this team, with a very reasoanble amount of offensive talent, is one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA?

If Rondo is so critical to this team, then why is his net on/off rating a -1.3 (according to NBA.com advanced stats)?

Why did we lost the last two games, even through Rondo recorded triple doubles in both?  How come today when Pierce recorded a triple double, we won the game against the best team in the East? 

I love Rondo as a player, but I'm just not convinced that he is the absolutely critical piece to this team everybody believes he is.

So aside from objective opinion, quoting of box scores and pure fanboyism, can anybody here actually produce some type of statistical correlation between Rondo playing, and us winning?

Let me help with some words quoted from an NBA.com article:

Quote
As good as Rondo has been, keep this in mind: Even with him this season, the Celtics ranked 23rd in the NBA in offensive effiency entering Sunday.
 
Rondo entered Sunday ranked 49th in PER among players (and 16th among guards) who have played at least 3,000 minutes in the last four seasons. He ranked tied for 54th overall this season among those with at least 500 minutes played.
 
Celtics With Rajon Rondo
This Season - Per 48 Minutes
 
| Stat    | On Court | Off Court |
| FG %    |  45.9    |   45.2    |
| 3PT%    |  34.7    |   30.6    |
| Ass     |  23.5    |   20.4    |
| Pts     |  93.8    |   90.7    |
| Opp Pts |  95.7    |   90.8    |
 
Entering Sunday

The Celtics are averaging 93.8 points with Rondo on the court this season, and 90.7 points with him off the court. But they're considerably better in terms of what they allow, as noted in the chart on the right.
 
They’ve been able to survive his absence in the past.

The Celtics are 145-95 with Rondo over the last four seasons, but they are also 22-13 without him. He's previously missed as many as 14 games in a season.
 
In that span, they've been a plus-2.9 points per 48 minutes with him on the floor, but plus-4.4 points with him off the floor.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.

starting to wonder the same thing. as a matter of fact for quite some time now.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2013, 10:12:26 PM »

Offline Who

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The team creates more good to high percentage shot attempts in the game with Rondo on the court. The team takes more low to medium percentage shot attempts when Rondo is unavailable.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2013, 10:19:25 PM »

Offline WeMadeIt17

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People are nuts if you think the clippers are going to give up Deandre Jordan for Pierce. I don't want to trade Pierce or KG for the record. But c'mon you really think the clipper would send out a 7 footer who fits perfectly with what they are doing? Who plays the 5 for them if they send him out. Putting in Pierce and taking away Jordan is a step sideways. But as the rest of this thread goes. I think it would be distasteful to trade KG or Paul at this point. We are the 8th seed and have room to improve. If we could somehow send Bass on his way and get back either A. A decent PG like Kyle lowery. Or B. Send him out for a center like Gortat. Then I think this team could actually be in business.

Yes Rondo is a huge part of this lineup but we could go with a old school lineup of something like

Bradley
Lee
Pierce
KG
Gortat

That team is tough on defense, and then you have guys like Sully,Green,Terry,and Barbosa off the bench. That could give team fits.



L.A. Clippers
Felton/Afflalo/Gay/Griffin/Vucevic
Billups/Pietrus/Novak/Hill/Leonard
Daniels/Gooden/Turiaf

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2013, 10:22:03 PM »

Offline Eris

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I have zero expectation of Danny Ainge blowing this up.

I fully expect Ainge to ride this out.
More or less I agree with you but the Cs still need another big man. Play Wilcox, bring Melo up and play him. If that's not enough and the team isn't winning Danny can try to make a deal.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2013, 10:22:23 PM »

Offline greenpride32

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Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2013, 10:33:31 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.


couldnt agree more.  Hate to admit it but we may be a better team without him. 

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2013, 10:45:35 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Ainge sounds pretty skeptical about the c's chances without Rondo

OK, Danny, now what?
Quote
Danny Ainge, the architect of the Boston Celtics' roster, said he will "evaluate in the next couple of days" how to fill the cavernous void left by Rajon Rondo, who tore his ACL in a game against the Atlanta Hawks on Friday and is done for the season.
Quote
"Barbosa has been clamoring for minutes, and every time he's gotten them he's done good things," Ainge said. "So this is an opportunity for him."

Former Celtics point guard Keyon Dooling, who remains with the team in a player development role, said he's in "good human shape" but about "three weeks away" from basketball shape. Asked if he'd consider a comeback, Dooling said, "I would do anything for Doc and Danny."

Ainge quickly ruled out that possibility moments after the Celtics beat the Miami Heat in double overtime.

Quote
"We've had success playing without Rajon during short periods of time, but we've never had to play without him during long periods of time," Ainge said. "It should be an interesting test for us. Not a test we wanted. Frankly, I'm worried about that test."

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8888278/danny-ainge-worried-boston-celtics-rajon-rondo

so IMO basically the c's have 3 weeks to prove to danny they can play at a high level, or else he will likely trade off some long term contracts if he can get decent value


Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2013, 10:49:38 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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If Ainge wants to blow the team up:

KG to Chicago for a package that includes Taj Gibson and Nicola Mirotic

Pierce to Golden State for Harrison Barnes, Richard Jefferson and Brandon Rush (injured).  Boston takes on RJ's contract, which will expire after next season at $10m, and get a promising young Pierce replacement in Barnes. Golden State gets a go to wing with championship experience at almost the same price of RJ and the injured Rush this year and next. They can play Draymond Green behind Pierce and not miss a beat.

I'm not saying either GS or Chicago would do these deals, but if they're serious about making title runs this year and next, they should.   Boston gets two promising young starters, in Gibson and Barnes, and a possible all star in Mirotic when he finally gets to the NBA in 2014.     

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2013, 10:52:22 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.


couldnt agree more.  Hate to admit it but we may be a better team without him.

Yes also agree. I feel Celtics need to trade for a near-star player and they are contenders again

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2013, 10:57:27 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.

  Once again we have a below average offensive game without Rondo and people talk about how great it looked. And if you're going to use our record in games where Rondo has a triple double as an indication of whether he's a great team player, look at the rest of them as well. We aren't 0-2 when Rondo has triple doubles, we're 23-5.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2013, 11:01:13 PM »

Offline jdz101

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Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

He deserves a chance at a ring. Send him to warriors with a returning bogut or to the clippers.

May aswell trade pierce for a bunch of bananas. That's about how useful bogut is. At least you get the potassium with the bananas.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2013, 11:17:53 PM »

Offline Casperian

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Makes sense. As far as blowing things up, there is nothing to blow up. 8th seed with Rondo and maybe they can hold on to the 8th seed without him. The rebuilding starts now or in the offseason, but there is nothing left to blow up.

But you know what is meant by the term 'blow-up' as it pertains to this team.  Even though you decided long ago that this team is not championship caliber, there are many who believed that this team could be dangerous again in the playoffs.  True or not true doesn't really matter.  Bottom line is that a blow-up means changing the face(s) of this franchise by trading PP and/or KG.

Vinnie didn´t believe we´re championship caliber, but others believed we could be "dangerous" in the playoffs?

These things aren´t mutually exclusive!
I believed we could be "dangerous" in the playoffs. I also believed us winning a champoinship was as likely as Kobe in Green.

These guys are fighters, and they played like fighters, and that´s also why they even made it to the ECF. However, contrary to popular belief, fighting isn´t everything. We lack top-class talent.

I swear, there are so many logical fallacies at work in these kind of threads, it´s hard just to read through them.
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2013, 11:29:48 PM »

Offline blink

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Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.

  Once again we have a below average offensive game without Rondo and people talk about how great it looked. And if you're going to use our record in games where Rondo has a triple double as an indication of whether he's a great team player, look at the rest of them as well. We aren't 0-2 when Rondo has triple doubles, we're 23-5.

I think there is a lot of truth to this.  We had pretty much our best def game of the year, but had to really fight / scrape out a really tough win. 

I just am getting tired of the double standard with Rondo.  RR gets a triple double and he is stat padding, PP gets one and he had a great overall game.  It makes no sense.  does everyone not want RR to score, rebound and get assists?

Rondo or no Rondo if we can't get higher % shots or improve our fg % it is going to be hard to get Wins. Hard to point to this as a typical game as well.  KG played 45 min and PP played 49 min just getting by on fumes at the end.  I mean we had no choice, but my point is we can't expect this type of mins / effort out of the old guys every night.  They won't make it to the playoffs.

Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2013, 11:36:56 PM »

Offline BballTim

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For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

 

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