Author Topic: Assist Leaders and Team Offense  (Read 2529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2013, 04:41:01 PM »

Offline MBunge

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2265
  • Tommy Points: 197
And just for comparison, Rondo is getting 12.1 shots a game this year.  Jarrett Jack in Golden State is getting 10 shots a game.

Mike

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2013, 05:31:53 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1444
  • Tommy Points: 217
Quote
Rondo's efficiency is fairly close to average for a pg.

Great, I'm glad that we have a franchise point guard that is fairly close to average for a point guard, while almost every other top point guard has better efficiency numbers.

Quote
Then where was the play for him at the end of the game instead of two plays for Pierce?  Rondo averaged 10.6 points the championship year.  He's scoring 13.7 points this year.  His assists have skyrocketed, but does it make any sense for Rondo to be scoring just 3.1 points per game more than he did his second year in the league?  With this team?  With Ray gone?

A. The entire of the offense is not summed by by the last minute of the game.

B. Rondo has had plays called for him at the end of the game multiple times this year. Does anyone remember the national TV game that went into overtime? I'm forgetting the team....but that's one instance.

Again, Rondo is scoring just 3.1 points per game more this year than he did in the championship year.  Does that make any sense, given his development and the fact that Ray is gone?  Last season, Rondo averaged 10.8 shots a game and Ray averaged 10.7 shots a game.  With Ray gone, Rondo is getting just 1.3 more shots a game this year.  Does that make any sense?

Mike

Actually, yeah, it does.  He's trying to feed all the other 'scorers' that we've brought in to replace Ray's touches.  The fact that some of them can't seem to shoot worth beans at the moment is probably robbing him of an extra assist or two per game.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2013, 06:47:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • Antoine Walker
  • *****
  • Posts: 5133
  • Tommy Points: 328


It sure seems from your follow up posts that what you are trying to do is blame the Celtics offensive problems on Rondo.


That's far too reductive.

The fact that the Celtics suck offensively is not Rondo's fault.

Does that means he doesn't play a role in it?  I don't agree with that, either. 

What I'm trying to get at is there's a disconnect between a common sense notion that a pure passing point guard facilitates offensive production and the fact that Rondo racks up tons of assists even as the Celtics continue to suck offensively.

I accept that the Celtics are a bad rebounding team and that obviously plays a role.  But it seems clear that as far as Rondo and the Celtics are concerned, assists do not correlate with efficient offensive production in a clear or direct way. 

My instinct is that Rondo's inability to shoot from outside and reluctance to score plays a role in this, and he'll probably not ever be able to run a high powered offense like Nash or Stockton.  But maybe that's wrong.  Maybe the Celtics would be just as terrible, or worse, with a point guard who gets fewer assists but scores / shoots more (e.g. Jrue Holiday).  I'm skeptical about that, though.

  Rondo's already shown that he can run a high powered offense. We had one going in 2010-2011 before he started with the plantar fascitis. He was putting up more assists at the start of the season than anyone ever has and the Celts were playing like a top 5 offensive team.


That's a fair point, the team did look pretty great during that early stretch of the season.

I guess the question is if Rondo needs that level of talent around him (that team was STACKED with a healthy Shaq)to run a high powered offense, or if he just needs a more balanced set of options (Shaq's low post presence really was the missing piece for the team -- we've missed him ever since).
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2013, 12:13:06 AM »

Offline Casperian

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2615
  • Tommy Points: 160
That´s because they don´t correlate, or better, only minimal and indirectly. Having a high assist PG basically has nothing to do with offensive efficiency. From the way assist are counted, to the fact that there huge differences in "how" you create those assists, they are one of the least reliable mainstream stats.

Steve Nash wasn´t just leading the league in assists, he was also a dangerous shooter.

There was an article on the front page last year about a stat summit including several nba executives, which highlighted some of the flaws of this particular statistic quite tranparently.

  I posted this elsewhere recently, but last march some Wizards fan felt that Wall was losing a lot of assist opportunities because the Wizards were such poor shooters. They looked (on the synergy sports website) at all of the passes Wall made that led to a scoring chance (which would end in a basket, miss or turnover) and compared that to all other turnovers. Wall's passes led to a (roughly, from memory) 44% scoring rate, up from 35% on all other scoring opportunities. (possessions that ended in free throws weren't included in the study fwiw). That 9% increase was just over the league average calculated at 82games of an 8% increase.

 For comparison they also looked at Rondo. Passes from Rondo led to scores about 56% of the time compared to about 35% (same as the Wizards btw) on all other scoring opportunities. That was more than double Wall's increase and 2.5 times the league average.

I´m sorry, I think I´m unable to follow, what exactly are you trying to say? That somebody whose job it is to create higher scoring opportunities does exactly that? What does that have to do with my post? How does this stat prove a correlation between offensive efficiency and a PG with high assists numbers? Unless you want to argue that Rondo is pretty good at this specific trait, which is a completely different ballgame.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 12:24:14 AM by Casperian »
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2013, 10:29:24 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22632
  • Tommy Points: 1041
That´s because they don´t correlate, or better, only minimal and indirectly. Having a high assist PG basically has nothing to do with offensive efficiency. From the way assist are counted, to the fact that there huge differences in "how" you create those assists, they are one of the least reliable mainstream stats.

Steve Nash wasn´t just leading the league in assists, he was also a dangerous shooter.

There was an article on the front page last year about a stat summit including several nba executives, which highlighted some of the flaws of this particular statistic quite tranparently.

  I posted this elsewhere recently, but last march some Wizards fan felt that Wall was losing a lot of assist opportunities because the Wizards were such poor shooters. They looked (on the synergy sports website) at all of the passes Wall made that led to a scoring chance (which would end in a basket, miss or turnover) and compared that to all other turnovers. Wall's passes led to a (roughly, from memory) 44% scoring rate, up from 35% on all other scoring opportunities. (possessions that ended in free throws weren't included in the study fwiw). That 9% increase was just over the league average calculated at 82games of an 8% increase.

 For comparison they also looked at Rondo. Passes from Rondo led to scores about 56% of the time compared to about 35% (same as the Wizards btw) on all other scoring opportunities. That was more than double Wall's increase and 2.5 times the league average.

I´m sorry, I think I´m unable to follow, what exactly are you trying to say? That somebody whose job it is to create higher scoring opportunities does exactly that? What does that have to do with my post? How does this stat prove a correlation between offensive efficiency and a PG with high assists numbers? Unless you want to argue that Rondo is pretty good at this specific trait, which is a completely different ballgame.

  Sorry, I probably shouldn't have quoted your post in mine. Not exactly sure why I did.

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2013, 11:27:31 AM »

Offline tonyto3690

  • Brandon Bass
  • Posts: 440
  • Tommy Points: 39
All those numbers are telling me is that teams that push the break have more success.  Teams that are slow, lethargic, and walk the ball up and let defenses set their defense every possession have trouble scoring reliably and have less bulk opportunities to score.

Rondo has Bass, Green, Sullinger, Lee, Bradley.  The whole "HE HAS NO ONE TO RUN WITH" excuse is old and pretty stupid.

Rondo doesn't run because that requires too much effort and he doesn't give a **** until it's the playoffs or vs Miami or NY.

Re: Assist Leaders and Team Offense
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2013, 05:28:28 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27086
  • Tommy Points: 2030
All those numbers are telling me is that teams that push the break have more success.  Teams that are slow, lethargic, and walk the ball up and let defenses set their defense every possession have trouble scoring reliably and have less bulk opportunities to score.

Rondo has Bass, Green, Sullinger, Lee, Bradley.  The whole "HE HAS NO ONE TO RUN WITH" excuse is old and pretty stupid.

Rondo doesn't run because that requires too much effort and he doesn't give a **** until it's the playoffs or vs Miami or NY.
Brooklyn has the slowest pace in the league this year. They hardly ever run the ball. They have a decently efficient offense.

Running versus half court has nothing to do success or efficiency. Celtics have been a half court team since 2008 and have been to 2 Finals and 3 ECFs in 5 years. The Lakers have been a half court team since 2008. They have been to 3 Finals winning 2 since then.


 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog