Author Topic: The Jeff Green thread  (Read 41830 times)

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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #255 on: February 23, 2013, 08:17:19 PM »

Offline wahz

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I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way, mental, physical, spiritual.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young Celtics player or diminishing the accomplishments of a guy who has come back from an awfully bad break.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:23:50 PM by wahz »

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #256 on: February 23, 2013, 08:23:43 PM »

Online hpantazo

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I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young player of who has come back from an awfully bad break.

I see what Nick is trying to say, but I think where he is wrong is that he's trying to separate the mental part of Green's improvement from recovery from his surgery. The two factors are strongly linked. A major part of his recover from surgery is mental. Getting mentally back to where he was pre-surgery had to happen first before he could then take steps to expand and improve his game.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #257 on: February 23, 2013, 09:17:37 PM »

Online BballTim

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

  The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #258 on: February 23, 2013, 09:24:55 PM »

Online BballTim

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #259 on: February 23, 2013, 09:48:11 PM »

Offline jdz101

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

 The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.

At what point have I claimed that rondo doesnt pass the ball? He is a great passer, especially when he facilitates KG and Pierce. However, Green, Courtney Lee, and Jason Terry are touching the ball more and allowed to create more now that rondo is out. This is of great benefit to them. You only have to open your eyes to see it.

I'd like to see a transition efficiency/overall numbers comparison between the rondo celtics and non-rondo celtics aswell. Was having him at the point actually increasing their transition efficiency?


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #260 on: February 23, 2013, 10:10:49 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #261 on: February 23, 2013, 10:29:21 PM »

Offline Rtpas11

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Jeff Green >>> Josh Smith
Glad we didn't trade him. I believe with opportunity he'll put up better efficient #'s
"I'm tired of being the everything that gets nothing"

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #262 on: February 23, 2013, 10:36:18 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Look. If you really are that upset with Jeff, just go kill him.

Give him a chance already. On every game I've watched since Jeff returned, he's gotten nothing but admiration from the commentators. I don't see why you guys just keep on disrespecting. Would you rather he just sit on the bench, or in a hospital for the next year and a half? This is a young player who needs time to develop. There's a reason we didn't sign him to a one-year deal, but a four-year deal. There's obviously something that he has, which we want. He came back from freaking open-heart surgery, which is tens of hundreds of times worse than an ACL injury.

You guys just don't seem to understand that Jeff is a human too. He's not a robot who just had a "glitch in his system" that can be fixed seamlessly (no pun intended). He needs time, just like any other person in the world to ever live, to work his way back. We didn't expect LeBron and we didn't expect Sasha Pavlovic. We were hoping he was a 9-million dollar player, an All-Star. And in the first few months, he was far from it. He showed bursts of excellence, but bursts don't mean much to you guys.

He's been averaging the same stats his whole career, and this year's per36 stats aren't any different. What's different are his experiences. I'm willing to bet my life, that there isn't a day that passes in which he doesn't realize how lucky he is to be alive. He has the freakish athleticism and size that we all expected (maybe unfairly) from him. But think of the countless things he hasn't done wrong. He's a good teammate. He doesn't blurt to the media. I don't remember him getting into any fights with any teammates. He doesn't complain about losing. KG, Doc, Pierce would probably all agree this guy is one of the toughest guys on this team.

His upside is huge, and it's not outrageous to think he can have a 50-point game every so often. He has the post moves. He has the three-point shot. He has the hook shots. He has the jumper. He has the dunk. His game is as varied as anybody in the league. "Stronger than the 3, faster than the 4." If played right, he poses the most mismatches we could ever find. The number of players in the league who can defend him well probably is in the single-digits. If he's not playing behind Kevin Durant (one of the best SFs ever) or Paul Pierce (one of the best SFs ever), he sure does have a good chance at success.

And though he might not be consistent from game-to-game, he sure is consistent throughout his years. You're all upset that he hasn't played better than his OKC days, but he hasn't played much worse either. In the very worst case scenario, he keeps these "meh" stats going, and we still didn't overpay him like crazy. At his current stats, he would still get paid $4 million or so. Except he has three more years to change all of our minds, and I think that's gonna happen.

Of course I'm just being hopeful, but given an opportunity to thrive, I am still convinced he can be a top 5 SF in this league (even though this post probably makes you think that I think he's the greatest human to ever live). Apart from KD/LBJ/Melo, there isn't that much competition at the SF position. Best case scenario, he outplays Batum, George, etc. and nears where Carmelo played at Denver. Worst case, he plays the same way he always has, and we overpaid him. But no matter what, he's worth the chance. If we didn't pay him, someone would have (albeit not as much), but it's irrational to call him a bust when he hasn't been given a chance to shine.

Let Green play! :P
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #263 on: February 23, 2013, 11:03:03 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young player of who has come back from an awfully bad break.

I see what Nick is trying to say, but I think where he is wrong is that he's trying to separate the mental part of Green's improvement from recovery from his surgery. The two factors are strongly linked. A major part of his recover from surgery is mental. Getting mentally back to where he was pre-surgery had to happen first before he could then take steps to expand and improve his game.

You cannot separate the two, regardless of the type of injury. That's where he veers into the ditch on this subject. Coached a lot of injured players in my career, and this factor never varies. They are inevitably linked.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #264 on: February 24, 2013, 10:05:50 AM »

Online BballTim

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

  And the accompanying "if I don't see something everyone who does see it is wrong" rebuttal.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #265 on: February 24, 2013, 10:18:19 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

  And the accompanying "if I don't see something everyone who does see it is wrong" rebuttal.

And I've kept asking the questions, keep pointing to different facets that disprove the assessment, and there's yet to be anything that resembles a proper counter to those points.

More than anything we've been seeing a phenomenon that was already happening within the 2nd unit, particularly since January began, well before Rondo went down.

The only player that is noticeably playing harder is Bass, but I don't think that has much to do with Rondo. A case can be made for Green, yet that proposes we ignore that vast improvement we were already noticing in January before Rondo went down compared to the earlier portions of the season, and it suggest we ignore the overall defensive effort that has been in place for most of the year.

Who exactly is playing with more effort?

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #266 on: February 24, 2013, 10:47:06 AM »

Online BballTim

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oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

 The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.

At what point have I claimed that rondo doesnt pass the ball? He is a great passer, especially when he facilitates KG and Pierce. However, Green, Courtney Lee, and Jason Terry are touching the ball more and allowed to create more now that rondo is out. This is of great benefit to them. You only have to open your eyes to see it.

  For all the talk about Terry's role changing without Rondo he's still taking a ton of spot up shots, he's just hitting them at a better clip than he was in Dec/Jan. As for Green, he'd probably played more minutes with Rondo on the bench than with Rondo in the game before Rondo was injured, I'd wonder whether your eyes saw Green playing like he's been recently when Rondo wasn't playing.

I'd like to see a transition efficiency/overall numbers comparison between the rondo celtics and non-rondo celtics aswell. Was having him at the point actually increasing their transition efficiency?

  We seem to be more efficient now but fewer fast break points. Considering Doc's comments about trying to run more without Rondo (and right after Rondo was injured someone posted an interview where Terry said the wings were going to try and get up the court faster in transition) it's not all that surprising.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #267 on: February 24, 2013, 11:50:04 AM »

Offline tonyto3690

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Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #268 on: February 24, 2013, 01:53:05 PM »

Offline kgainez

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I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

what?
are you serious?

this is precisely why I don't bring this up in arguments regarding JG. athletes are not humans to some of us and are just to recover like the aliens they are.

Jeff first and foremost went through a surgery that stopped his heart for 5 hours. Please think about that. Please think about the condition you think you'd be in if you were dead for 5 hours. lol...wow

he had VERY little summer. so while people are exercising, conditioning and stuff, Jeff Green is re-learning how to hold a ball, bro. His doctors STILL don't want him playing. They said its going to take him 2 full years to recover. after 1 year he's playing in the NBa at a very high level...where he's averaging 22 and 5 in his last 3 games.

I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. While guys get to have several years in the NBA with little no injuries, this guy misses a year and you want him to come back like nothing happened.

This is why I don't give AB a hard time and I won't give RR or Barbosa a hard time when they return to play. smh

wow

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #269 on: February 24, 2013, 01:57:43 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

what?
are you serious?

this is precisely why I don't bring this up in arguments regarding JG. athletes are not humans to some of us and are just to recover like the aliens they are.

Jeff first and foremost went through a surgery that stopped his heart for 5 hours. Please think about that. Please think about the condition you think you'd be in if you were dead for 5 hours. lol...wow

he had VERY little summer. so while people are exercising, conditioning and stuff, Jeff Green is re-learning how to hold a ball, bro. His doctors STILL don't want him playing. They said its going to take him 2 full years to recover. after 1 year he's playing in the NBa at a very high level...where he's averaging 22 and 5 in his last 3 games.

I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. While guys get to have several years in the NBA with little no injuries, this guy misses a year and you want him to come back like nothing happened.

This is why I don't give AB a hard time and I won't give RR or Barbosa a hard time when they return to play. smh

wow

TP

 

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