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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #165 on: January 24, 2013, 12:05:48 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Wow, mmmmm, I did not notice you posted that Green is successful with Lee, Sully, Garnett.
That's my dream lineup, since when those four play, preferably with Rondo, there are no volume shooters.

Being who he is, Green wont be a chucker like Pierce, Bradley, Barbosa, Bass (not so much anymore) or Terry. With that lineup, everyone shares, there's decent spacing, and the ball goes to the best option, most often. I want to see Rondo/Lee/Green/Sully/Garnett more. Please, Doc!

It would get him to play to his strengths, finally.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #166 on: January 24, 2013, 12:08:00 AM »

Offline vinnie

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No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #167 on: January 24, 2013, 12:09:04 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.

Go get heart surgery, then play with debatably the fittest humans in the world, then come talk.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #168 on: January 24, 2013, 12:11:49 AM »

Offline kgainez

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Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.

I'd like to see him do two things:

1) Put two consecutive halves of high energy next to each other in a single game.... just once... instead of this 10 minutes of good, then 10 minutes of hazy, looks-like-i-got-the-muchies-at-halftime, cement shoes, completely awful stuff. Which leads me to point two;

uhh...tell the entire team to do that first, bro

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #169 on: January 24, 2013, 12:12:01 AM »

Offline vinnie

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No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.

Go get heart surgery, then play with debatably the fittest humans in the world, then come talk.

What about the 5 years before the heart surgery? Stop the freaking madness.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #170 on: January 24, 2013, 12:14:21 AM »

Offline kgainez

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The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2013, 12:16:31 AM »

Offline vinnie

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The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.

Um, the guy who started this thread said Green will be a top 5 SF in the league in 2 years, which is ludicrous.

By the way, I forgot one of the other excuses for his performance when he first came to the Celts -- he was intimidated by the veteran superstars and didn't want to cause any disruption.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #172 on: January 24, 2013, 12:23:47 AM »

Offline kgainez

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The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.

Um, the guy who started this thread said Green will be a top 5 SF in the league in 2 years, which is ludicrous.

By the way, I forgot one of the other excuses for his performance when he first came to the Celts -- he was intimidated by the veteran superstars and didn't want to cause any disruption.

i didn't start the thread, guy.  i was agreeing with another poster.

and that may very well be an excuse. didn't he or someone admit when he first came how he felt out of place or something? didn't he play like 26 games? then had a heart surgery...and has now played 41 games. Jeff has played a total of 67 games for us compared to a guy (he's backing up) that's played for 15 years. Is it plausible that's true? absolutely...why not?

Is it an excuse? Idk...you ask why someone plays poorly or not up to par and someone might find an answer for you.

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #173 on: January 24, 2013, 12:59:28 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.

Here's the thing, a player with 15 pp36 and 5 rp36 is not a $9 million dollar a year player at market value. There are a ton of players that are role players that put up those per36 type stats that don't make anywhere near $9 million a year or are worth anywhere near $9 million a year. You have to get 15/5 per game to get $9 million a year in today's market.

He was signed knowing that he wouldn't get a chance to start and/or put up the 36 mpg necessary for him to score 15/5 per game for at least two years and maybe more. That makes half his contract severely overpaid and makes the entire contract not an at market value contract.

And that's why most people have such a problem with the contract and call it a bad contract. The C's knew going in he would never get the 36 mpg necessary to give them the production that a $9 million a year contract warrants. Therefore, bad contract

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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #174 on: January 24, 2013, 05:29:58 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.

For the fifth time this thread.............. That Thunder team was a legit contender and had the fourth seed in the west with Green being a solid starter scoring 16+ points with consistency. That was years ago, he can get twenty any day now if played right.

The year you were asking about, Green's best year, the team had 23 wins.

The team then got much better as Green regressed slightly, and has continued to improve since trading him. Green peaked in year 2 and has been mostly stable/backward since the year he was gifted all the minutes and all the touches he could want for a terrible 23 win team and still capped out at 16.5/6.7, aka Al Harrington land (huge minutes, artificially ok looking total counting numbers).

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #175 on: January 24, 2013, 08:20:52 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.

For the fifth time this thread.............. That Thunder team was a legit contender and had the fourth seed in the west with Green being a solid starter scoring 16+ points with consistency. That was years ago, he can get twenty any day now if played right.

The year you were asking about, Green's best year, the team had 23 wins.

The team then got much better as Green regressed slightly, and has continued to improve since trading him. Green peaked in year 2 and has been mostly stable/backward since the year he was gifted all the minutes and all the touches he could want for a terrible 23 win team and still capped out at 16.5/6.7, aka Al Harrington land (huge minutes, artificially ok looking total counting numbers).

Maybe you should check out the third year. By the way, 16.5/6.7 is solid and not too far off from Paul Pierce stats. And this was years ago, playing in the wrong position.

If the team got this kid going, he'd be a top 5 SF in the league, and no, I'm not "ludicrous".
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #176 on: January 24, 2013, 08:46:12 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Paul Pierce at a relatively same age as Green was putting up 25-26 ppg, 6-7 rpg, and 4-5 apg on a year in year out basis.

Those numbers dominate Green's best year.

Please don't insult Pierce by trying to say Green was or is anywhere near the player Pierce was or is. In Pierce's worst year at the age of 35, Pierce is still significantly better than Green was in his best season.

The comparison is preposterous.
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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2013, 08:50:41 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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The allure of "potential" can be overwhelming to some.

Saw this with Gerald Green years ago and see much of the same here now.


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Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2013, 10:56:29 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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Jeff Green is exactly the same player he was before heart surgery.  I wish Green supporters would stop using that as an excuse.  I don't see any medical professionals saying that Green isn't 100%, and id be shocked if they would let him play if he wasn't.

Green is what he is - and has been remarkably consistent - as a mediocre player who puts up mediocre stats when given big minutes.  He hasn't adapted at all to a 6th man role, doesn't warm to the game quickly when he gets on the floor, and isn't a go getter.  Tons of talent, but forgive the pun, very little heart (and balls). 

People who defend him see the few moments when he looks tremendous and figure "why can't Green do that all the time."  Well he can't.  The guy has never had a high motor.  Giving him 4 years guaranteed at $36 million was idiotic. One can hope that he morphs into a point every two minute 6th man who plays solid defense, but right now, that looks like a prayer.     

Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2013, 11:00:47 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Jeff Green is exactly the same player he was before heart surgery.  I wish Green supporters would stop using that as an excuse.  I don't see any medical professionals saying that Green isn't 100%, and id be shocked if they would let him play if he wasn't.
You're assuming that he's fully recovered and is again the same player despite the surgery. I'm assuming that the surgery may be holding him back a bit from becoming a better player than he was. Not saying that he will necessarily be an instant allstar, but he's getting the benefit of a doubt for me at least for this season.
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