Author Topic: Kyrie > Rondo  (Read 13361 times)

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Offline Roy H.

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #180 on: January 23, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »
Amazing how quickly the mob turns....Makes me wonder if they play in Boston or Springfield

I'm not sure it takes a mob mentality to consider an opposing player better than one of ours.

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #181 on: January 23, 2013, 10:30:18 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.  Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.
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Offline KGs Knee

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #182 on: January 23, 2013, 10:40:03 PM »
Amazing how quickly the mob turns....Makes me wonder if they play in Boston or Springfield

I'm not sure it takes a mob mentality to consider an opposing player better than one of ours.

Maybe not, but, what exactly does it take to consider an opposing player better, when he CLEARLY is not?

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Offline nickagneta

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2013, 10:40:52 PM »
Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.
So what you are saying , that everyone is co-signing to, is if Rondo was traded for a PG that couldn't pass as well, somehow, the ball movement would be better?

Perhaps the reason for the offensive efficiency going downhill over the past few years has more to do with the players around Rondo not passing as well or being new to the system? let's face it this isn't KG and Pierce from 10 years ago. Neither pass as well or as much as they used to. Say what you want about Ray Allen but he's twice the passer that Bradley or Lee are. And bass has been a black hole his whole career. He isn't exactly known for passing the ball.

Also, as Pierce and Ray and KG got older, they stopped going to the basket. The additions to this team have been outside shooters. Over the years, more and more, Danny has strapped Doc with players that want to shoot outside jumpers. This team has one rookie that goes inside and that's it. Offensive efficiency isn't going to get better as you depend more and more on outside mid range shooters.

Blaming those things on Rondo is just not right in my book.

I also saw where people are saying Rondo can't shoot from outside. Rondo's mid range shot has improved vastly. He doesn't have three point range but he does have an outside shot.


Who is blaming those things on Rondo? No one is solely blaming Rondo for the offensive inefficiencies. I think the point is there is an argument that Rondo's "ability to run an offense" doesn't have any real evidence behind it though. Yes, there are other factors....but Rondo's inability to score efficiently is among them.
I don't think anyone is directly blaming Rondo solely for the drop in offensive efficiency with this team since 2009, but let's face it, there's people intimating it and trying to correlate the team's dropping offensive efficiency solely with Rondo's ability to run an offense.

I think Boston's dropping offensive inefficiency has less to do with Rondo and more to do with the way Doc wants the offense run and the players surrounding Rondo.

Look at Brooklyn. Is Williams really a better passer, a better facilitator or a more efficient scorer as Rondo? No. But the Nets have a much higher offensive efficiency than Boston.

Why? It's simple. Williams has a player who has a very good and real inside game. Brooklyn has players with very good offensive rebounding abilities and make a concerted effort to get offensive rebounds. And they have players that make a concerted effort to go to the basket and then get to the foul line.

Give Rondo's those things in Boston, and my guess is Boston's offensive efficiency is much higher and there is not one poster on Celticsblog questioning whether Rondo can run an offense well or whether Irving's ability to run an offense is better than Rondo's
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Offline celtsfan84

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #184 on: January 23, 2013, 10:59:22 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.  This is all not to mention that his worst round of all was in the Finals, with some pretty grim looking box scores.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 11:09:11 PM by celtsfan84 »

Offline nickagneta

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #185 on: January 23, 2013, 11:15:42 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.  Kyrie's 20 years old.  I'm pretty certain he can handle more minutes if he is given some extra nights off and no back-to-backs (a playoff schedule).

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.
Looking strictly at per minute stats for playoffs and regular season when talking about Rondo's clutchness in the playoffs is unfair. In the playoffs you play against only the best teams, play against that team's shortened rotation and best players, play at a completely different intensity level, and on a much larger stage. Some of Rondo's biggest games in terms of stats and his impact on the results of the game have come during the playoffs.

I find Rondo to be very clutch in the playoffs because even though he coasts at points during the regular season and slacks on defense during the regular season, in the playoffs, Rondo doesn't do this and he can effect a game in an elite manner in so many ways both offensively and defensively.

Rondo's game has some real holes in it, including his decision making, effort and immaturity, areas you would have hoped wouldn't be a problem at this point in his career. But saying he doesn't come up clutch in the playoffs doesn't pass the eye or smell test to me.
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Offline celtsfan84

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #186 on: January 23, 2013, 11:20:21 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.  Kyrie's 20 years old.  I'm pretty certain he can handle more minutes if he is given some extra nights off and no back-to-backs (a playoff schedule).

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.
Looking strictly at per minute stats for playoffs and regular season when talking about Rondo's clutchness in the playoffs is unfair. In the playoffs you play against only the best teams, play against that team's shortened rotation and best players, play at a completely different intensity level, and on a much larger stage. Some of Rondo's biggest games in terms of stats and his impact on the results of the game have come during the playoffs.

I find Rondo to be very clutch in the playoffs because even though he coasts at points during the regular season and slacks on defense during the regular season, in the playoffs, Rondo doesn't do this and he can effect a game in an elite manner in so many ways both offensively and defensively.

Rondo's game has some real holes in it, including his decision making, effort and immaturity, areas you would have hoped wouldn't be a problem at this point in his career. But saying he doesn't come up clutch in the playoffs doesn't pass the eye or smell test to me.

He's the same guy as he is in the regular season.  You just remember the games more.  He has some impressive stat lines in some regular season games too.

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #187 on: January 23, 2013, 11:38:15 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.  Kyrie's 20 years old.  I'm pretty certain he can handle more minutes if he is given some extra nights off and no back-to-backs (a playoff schedule).

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.
Looking strictly at per minute stats for playoffs and regular season when talking about Rondo's clutchness in the playoffs is unfair. In the playoffs you play against only the best teams, play against that team's shortened rotation and best players, play at a completely different intensity level, and on a much larger stage. Some of Rondo's biggest games in terms of stats and his impact on the results of the game have come during the playoffs.

I find Rondo to be very clutch in the playoffs because even though he coasts at points during the regular season and slacks on defense during the regular season, in the playoffs, Rondo doesn't do this and he can effect a game in an elite manner in so many ways both offensively and defensively.

Rondo's game has some real holes in it, including his decision making, effort and immaturity, areas you would have hoped wouldn't be a problem at this point in his career. But saying he doesn't come up clutch in the playoffs doesn't pass the eye or smell test to me.

He's the same guy as he is in the regular season.  You just remember the games more.  He has some impressive stat lines in some regular season games too.
Let me just say I think you are completely wrong and leave it at that.
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Offline lightspeed5

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2013, 11:48:20 PM »
every statistic,advanced statistic, and metric shows that rondo is a completely different beast in the playoffs

Offline celtsfan84

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2013, 11:49:15 PM »
every statistic,advanced statistic, and metric shows that rondo is a completely different beast in the playoffs

Please share all of them with me.

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2013, 11:53:53 PM »
Kyrie is nowhere near Rondo in:

Mid-range FG%
Assists
Rebounds

And those three are three of the most important parts of the game.

Kyrie might be better in:

3PFG%
Points
Clutch

Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.

When did mid-range shooting percentage become an integral part of the game?

I'm making a point, since y'all seem to be so intent on saying Kyrie is so good a shooter.

Kyrie Irving:

10-to-15 feet:  48%
16-to-23 feet:  49.2%
Combined:  48.7% on 220 attempts

Rajon Rondo: 

10-to-15 feet:  30.8%
16-to-23 feet:  50.8%
Combined:  47.2% on 148 attempts

Irving takes more mid-range shots, and he makes a higher percentage of them.  My guess is that he gets less open looks than Rondo, too.  Regardless, there's no objective way to say Rondo is better at mid-range shooting than Irving.

So basically, Rondo is slightly better from 16-23 ft, while Irving is noticeably better from 10-15 ft.

What are the shot attempt breakdowns, and is 10-15 ft really even midrange shooting?  How many guards actually take many shots from this range?  Basially , we're talking about who shoots better floaters, aren't we?

I just think it would have been better to strictly look at the 16-23 ft shots, as far as midrange shooting is concerned.

Irving has 98 attempts from 10-to-15 feet, and 132 from 16-to-23 feet.

Rondo has 26 attempts from 10-to-15 feet, and 122 from 16-to-23 feet.

And yes, I consider 10-to-15 feet to be midrange shooting.  At 15 feet, you're closer to the 3PT line than you are to the basket.

Looks to me like Rondo just doesn't take many 10-15 ft shots.  Not that big of a surprise his percentage is low.  All it takes is a few missed shots to tank your percentage.

Rondo shoots better from 16-23, what I consider to be a more accurate assesment of mid-range shooting.

Sure 15 ft is mid-range too, 10 ft surely is not.  I'd like to see what the numbers look like from 12-20 ft.  That would be a better definition of mid-range in my opinion.

All this is ignoring the fact that a strategy often taken with Rondo is to leave him completely open from this range, the 2010 Finals being the biggest example.

  Another strategy often taken by other teams is to leave KG completely open from this range. Watch any Celtics game and you'll see him take plenty of uncontested shots from this range. Does that make him a lesser shooter/scorer?

It makes him a lesser shooter than someone who makes contested shots at the same rate as KG makes uncontested shots. Definitely.

Contested shots are tougher than uncontested shots.  I'd say this is obvious but your comprehension of basketball and math has come into question.

  Yes, you're still stuck on reading comprehension. You're answering a comparison that I didn't ask about and gloating that I couldn't answer a question that nobody had asked. Oh, and if you could ratchet up your comprehension of basketball, you might learn that something called "shot selection" is often considered when comparing players. The fact that a player jacks up contested, low percentage shots isn't seen as a favorable trait for shooters as much as you'd think.

 

Worth note, to help you understand basketball a bit more, when you are playing with poor teammates, your shot selection is hindered.  Kyrie takes more contested shots than Rondo because he has to.  So Rondo shooting a similar midrange percentage is nowhere near as impressive as you seem to think it is.

  Okay, since you know that when you are playing with poor teammates your shot selection is hindered, I many have slightly underestimated your understanding of basketball. Maybe not so much that it might occur to you that Irving might not need to take quite so many contested shots if he'd find the open guy instead of taking all those contested shots, but it's a start.

  Seriously, though, when you say "Rondo shooting a similar midrange percentage is nowhere near as impressive as you seem to think it is", exactly how impressive did I say it was?
 

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #191 on: January 23, 2013, 11:56:01 PM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.  This is all not to mention that his worst round of all was in the Finals, with some pretty grim looking box scores.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.

I'd certainly say that Rondo was our best player on the team that reached the finals in 2010. 
You are right, though, that overall it wasn't his best statistical post season.  As a matter of fact, it was probably his second worst since the Championship year, behind the one where he was playing on one arm at the end of the Miami series in 2011. 

What really impressed me about 2010, though was his performance in the Cleveland series that year.  If you'll remember, that Cavs team had won 61 games, and led by James and Shaq was supposed to wipe the floor with the over the hill Celtics.  Rondo, however, was our dominant force in that series.  He averaged 20.7 ppg, 11.8 apg, 6.3 rpg, while shooting 54% from the field with a 3.2 A/TO ratio for the series.  If you want that in per 36 form, it's roughly; 17.7points per 36, 10.1 assists per 36, and 5.4 rebounds per 36.   It wasn't just the numbers, though, although they don't lie.  He controlled that series and picked the Cavs apart, frustrating the great Lebron James along the way, and effectively running him out of his hometown.

After that, his individual performance was a bit anti-climactic for the rest of the playoffs.  The team basically rode off the emotional crest of the Rondo-led Cavs upset all the way to game seven of the finals.   
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Offline soap07

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #192 on: January 24, 2013, 12:06:53 AM »
Quote
I think Boston's dropping offensive inefficiency has less to do with Rondo and more to do with the way Doc wants the offense run and the players surrounding Rondo.

Look at Brooklyn. Is Williams really a better passer, a better facilitator or a more efficient scorer as Rondo? No. But the Nets have a much higher offensive efficiency than Boston.

Uh, yes is the answer to all of your questions. Deron is certainly a more efficient scorer. His career turnover percentage is less than Rondo's. Heck, even his career assist percentage is higher than Rondo's if you are into that. Deron has been a much better point guard than Rondo in pretty much every year since Rondo has been in the league, save for last year when he was surrounded by garbage teammates.

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #193 on: January 24, 2013, 12:08:19 AM »
Quote
I think Boston's dropping offensive inefficiency has less to do with Rondo and more to do with the way Doc wants the offense run and the players surrounding Rondo.

Look at Brooklyn. Is Williams really a better passer, a better facilitator or a more efficient scorer as Rondo? No. But the Nets have a much higher offensive efficiency than Boston.

Uh, yes is the answer to all of your questions. Deron is certainly a more efficient scorer. His career turnover percentage is less than Rondo's. Heck, even his career assist percentage is higher than Rondo's if you are into that. Deron has been a much better point guard than Rondo in pretty much every year since Rondo has been in the league, save for last year when he was surrounded by garbage teammates.

Rondo is better. <adds no reasons>
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Offline celtsfan84

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #194 on: January 24, 2013, 12:18:46 AM »
This has been an interesting debate.  I'm still not sure why none of the posters who claim that Irving is a superior player to Rondo, or think that Rondo can't be the best player on a contending team, refuse to take into consideration the way that Rondo has led this team deep into the playoffs over the course of the past four seasons. 

Rondo has already been the best player on a team that made it to game seven of the NBA Finals and game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals. 

He's shown over the course of the last four seasons that he steps up his game in the playoffs.   Some seem to take this as a negative against Rondo.  To me, this is a distinct positive.  I also don't think it's purely a cause of him "bringing it" more in the playoffs, but also a product of what a cerebral basketball player he is.  When he plays the same team four or more consecutive games, he learns tendencies, he adjusts, he gets better.  He's the type of player who is always thinking ahead to the next play or the next game.  The playoffs--where you face the same teams multiple times in a seven game series--are geared to benefit a thinking player like Rondo. 

To date, I have no idea how Irving will perform in the NBA playoffs.  He hasn't been there.  Rondo has been there a lot, and excelled at the highest level.   That's worth a lot to me.  I'm surprised that it's not worth more to others.

A case can be made that Rondo wasn't our best overall player on either of those teams in the playoffs.

And for all of the talk that Rondo is so much better in the playoffs, the numbers don't really bear it out at all.  He just plays more minutes in the playoffs.

Let's look at 2009-10 for an example, the year you called him the best player on our Finals team.

His regular season stats, per 36 minutes - 13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 9.6 APG, 51% shooting, .156 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 54% true shooting, 52% eFG%.

His postseason stats, per 36 minutes - 14.0 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 8.2 APG, 46% shooting, .131 Win Shares (per 48 minutes), 50% true shooting, 48% eFG%.

So his "stepping up in the playoffs" in 2009-2010 actually saw him arguably play worse.  He scored half a point more and got half a rebound more per 36 minutes, while losing 1.4 assists and scoring less efficiently.  This is all not to mention that his worst round of all was in the Finals, with some pretty grim looking box scores.

There are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly better, there are seasons where his playoff numbers are slightly worse.  Overall, it's pretty much a draw.  Rondo's "clutch" attribute is a myth.  He's an All-Star caliber player in the regular season and an All-Star caliber player of equal talent that plays more minutes in the postseason.

To the bolded statement, I'd say, no, he hasn't.

I'd certainly say that Rondo was our best player on the team that reached the finals in 2010. 
You are right, though, that overall it wasn't his best statistical post season.  As a matter of fact, it was probably his second worst since the Championship year, behind the one where he was playing on one arm at the end of the Miami series in 2011. 

What really impressed me about 2010, though was his performance in the Cleveland series that year.  If you'll remember, that Cavs team had won 61 games, and led by James and Shaq was supposed to wipe the floor with the over the hill Celtics.  Rondo, however, was our dominant force in that series.  He averaged 20.7 ppg, 11.8 apg, 6.3 rpg, while shooting 54% from the field with a 3.2 A/TO ratio for the series.  If you want that in per 36 form, it's roughly; 17.7points per 36, 10.1 assists per 36, and 5.4 rebounds per 36.   It wasn't just the numbers, though, although they don't lie.  He controlled that series and picked the Cavs apart, frustrating the great Lebron James along the way, and effectively running him out of his hometown.

After that, his individual performance was a bit anti-climactic for the rest of the playoffs.  The team basically rode off the emotional crest of the Rondo-led Cavs upset all the way to game seven of the finals.

Fair enough.  And some pretty good points here, TP.

 

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