Author Topic: Kyrie > Rondo  (Read 14948 times)

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2013, 01:34:09 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Kyrie Irving was a bad defender last year.  This year, he's been well above-average, which is consistent with his reputation coming into the league.

Well above average? What are you talking about? His defense has improved, but he has not been nearly above average. The Cavs are a pretty terrible defensive team as a whole, but they are even worse when Kyrie is on the court.

That part of his game has yet to dramatically improve. Still very sub-par.

He ranks 95th in the league in points allowed per possession.  That puts him somewhere between the 20th and 25th percentile of all NBA players.

On isolation plays, he ranks 40th.

Despite his terrible teammates, Irving's defense has been good this year.  Again, this is consistent with his pre-draft reputation.
If Rondo is such a great defender, and Irving is so poor (given that this is a Rondo vs Irving thread), how come Irving completely torched Rondo, and not the other way around?

Because he didn't! How come I don't see Irving grabbing 13 rebounds? How come he averages just FIVE POINT THREE ASSISTS PER GAME? That's TERRIBLE for a POINT GUARD. He might be a better SCORER, but not a better PLAYER. Basketball is so much more than just scoring points!
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2013, 01:34:54 PM »

Offline wiley

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I absolutely think Kyrie is better than Rondo.  He wasn't the #1 pick after missing nearly the entire season of his freshman year for nothing.  He is an absolute stud. 

And I think if you give him someone to pass to, he would be much more than just a scorer.  He has excellent instincts, and Chris Paulesque skills.

With that said, he has also been pretty brittle so far in his career, so while he is a superstar in the making, there is also a level of treading carefully.

I agree basically, but I'm not ready to prefer Kyrie to Rondo in playoff games, maybe in a couple years. Need evdidence of how he handles a sincere attempt to shut him down by a team like Miami, and evidence that he doesn't have a bit Westbrook playoff syndrome, win a playoff game all by himself lose a playoff game all by himself. 

Despite being drafted #1, Irving was actually vastly underrated at the time of the draft.  No one thought he'd be in the discussion to supplant Paul, Wall, Rose as stud-du-jour.  They thought he'd be a good, solid PG.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2013, 01:39:54 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Because he didn't! How come I don't see Irving grabbing 13 rebounds? How come he averages just FIVE POINT THREE ASSISTS PER GAME? That's TERRIBLE for a POINT GUARD. He might be a better SCORER, but not a better PLAYER. Basketball is so much more than just scoring points!
He didn't what? Did you miss the part where Irving was scoring at will in the 4th and practically single-handedly won the game for Cleveland?

He doesn't average FIVE POINT THREE assists, he averages 5.7 this season, 5.5 over his career. And the main reason for this is that he's had to score a ton of points for his team to even be in the game, since the Cavs roster is chock-full of certified NBA scrubs.

Also, to get an assist the shooter actually has to score a basket, and the Cavaliers are second to last in the NBA in FG%.

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2013, 01:40:47 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.
So what you are saying , that everyone is co-signing to, is if Rondo was traded for a PG that couldn't pass as well, somehow, the ball movement would be better?

Perhaps the reason for the offensive efficiency going downhill over the past few years has more to do with the players around Rondo not passing as well or being new to the system? let's face it this isn't KG and Pierce from 10 years ago. Neither pass as well or as much as they used to. Say what you want about Ray Allen but he's twice the passer that Bradley or Lee are. And bass has been a black hole his whole career. He isn't exactly known for passing the ball.

Also, as Pierce and Ray and KG got older, they stopped going to the basket. The additions to this team have been outside shooters. Over the years, more and more, Danny has strapped Doc with players that want to shoot outside jumpers. This team has one rookie that goes inside and that's it. Offensive efficiency isn't going to get better as you depend more and more on outside mid range shooters.

Blaming those things on Rondo is just not right in my book.

I also saw where people are saying Rondo can't shoot from outside. Rondo's mid range shot has improved vastly. He doesn't have three point range but he does have an outside shot.
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2013, 01:45:34 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Kyrie is nowhere near Rondo in:

Mid-range FG%
Assists
Rebounds

And those three are three of the most important parts of the game.

Kyrie might be better in:

3PFG%
Points
Clutch

Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #125 on: January 23, 2013, 01:51:22 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.
Bigger impact to the stat sheet, maybe. Bigger impact to the game, not really.
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2013, 01:55:18 PM »

Online BballTim

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

  And I'd say it's underrated by people who think we don't need it because we won a title with 3 primary scoring options (all in their primes) in the starting lineup in 2008.

  Don't know if you saw this or not, but last spring someone was trying to show that John Wall lost a lot of assists because his teammates couldn't shoot. He looked at all the Wizards "scoring opportunities" from Wall passes and compared that to all the other scoring opportunities. He found that Wall's passes led to scores about 9% more often than all other opportunities. For comparison, he did the same with Rondo and saw that the jump in scoring from Rondo's passes was over twice as much, just over 20%.
 http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

  Considering the amount of assists Rondo gets that's a very significant difference in efficiency.

I'm not seeing the conclusions you are.  Maybe it's in the spreadsheet that isn't loading for me?

Here's the conclusion I'm reading:

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

That data can be read in two ways:

1.  Wall's teammates suck compared to Rondo's; or

2.  Rondo gets his guys in better position to convert shots

The answer is probably somewhere in between.  However, a study that shows that in a perfect world, John Wall would have more assists than Rajon Rondo doesn't strike me as all that meaningful, or particularly complimentary of Rondo.

  I can't load the spreadsheet either but they had the info summed up in one of the posts:

Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.

  Also:



“Total opportunities: 3244. Wall assisted opportunities: 572. Non-Wall-assisted: 3244 – 572 = 2672.

Total makes: 1178. Wall assisted makes: 251. Non-wall-assisted makes: 1178-251 = 927.

Non-wall-assisted "opportunities" : 927/2672 = 34.7.
Wall-assisted: 251/572 = 43.9%.

Difference: 9.2%."

It’s interesting that the Celtic’s non-Rondo assisted makes figure is 35.3%, only a little bit more than the Wizards non-Wall assisted make % of 34.7.


  So the Celts and the Wizards (no assist attempt from Rondo or Wall) were fairly identical but the Celts had a pretty large jump in efficiency off of passes from Rondo.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #127 on: January 23, 2013, 02:01:25 PM »

Offline ssspence

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So what you are saying , that everyone is co-signing to, is if Rondo was traded for a PG that couldn't pass as well, somehow, the ball movement would be better?


If that player could stretch the floor even remotely, and therefore forced his defender to respect his jumper, I think it would.

The Cs spacing often sucks, leading to awkward passes and stickiness at the end of the shot lock. It's pretty tough to watch. I don't really think its Rondo's fault -- he uses his gift for creativity as best he he can. It just can only take a guy who is not a good shooter so far....

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #128 on: January 23, 2013, 02:09:23 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Now that's a discussion.

Not really. That is just truth.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #129 on: January 23, 2013, 02:15:34 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.
Bigger impact to the stat sheet, maybe. Bigger impact to the game, not really.

Huh?

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #130 on: January 23, 2013, 02:17:30 PM »

Offline soap07

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.
So what you are saying , that everyone is co-signing to, is if Rondo was traded for a PG that couldn't pass as well, somehow, the ball movement would be better?

Perhaps the reason for the offensive efficiency going downhill over the past few years has more to do with the players around Rondo not passing as well or being new to the system? let's face it this isn't KG and Pierce from 10 years ago. Neither pass as well or as much as they used to. Say what you want about Ray Allen but he's twice the passer that Bradley or Lee are. And bass has been a black hole his whole career. He isn't exactly known for passing the ball.

Also, as Pierce and Ray and KG got older, they stopped going to the basket. The additions to this team have been outside shooters. Over the years, more and more, Danny has strapped Doc with players that want to shoot outside jumpers. This team has one rookie that goes inside and that's it. Offensive efficiency isn't going to get better as you depend more and more on outside mid range shooters.

Blaming those things on Rondo is just not right in my book.

I also saw where people are saying Rondo can't shoot from outside. Rondo's mid range shot has improved vastly. He doesn't have three point range but he does have an outside shot.


Who is blaming those things on Rondo? No one is solely blaming Rondo for the offensive inefficiencies. I think the point is there is an argument that Rondo's "ability to run an offense" doesn't have any real evidence behind it though. Yes, there are other factors....but Rondo's inability to score efficiently is among them.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #131 on: January 23, 2013, 02:18:31 PM »

Offline soap07

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Kyrie is nowhere near Rondo in:

Mid-range FG%
Assists
Rebounds

And those three are three of the most important parts of the game.

Kyrie might be better in:

3PFG%
Points
Clutch

Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.

When did mid-range shooting percentage become an integral part of the game?

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #132 on: January 23, 2013, 02:20:20 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Kyrie is nowhere near Rondo in:

Mid-range FG%
Assists
Rebounds

And those three are three of the most important parts of the game.

Kyrie might be better in:

3PFG%
Points
Clutch

Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.

When did mid-range shooting percentage become an integral part of the game?

I'm making a point, since y'all seem to be so intent on saying Kyrie is so good a shooter.
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #133 on: January 23, 2013, 02:30:23 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Kyrie is nowhere near Rondo in:

Mid-range FG%
Assists
Rebounds

And those three are three of the most important parts of the game.

Kyrie might be better in:

3PFG%
Points
Clutch

Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.

When did mid-range shooting percentage become an integral part of the game?

I'm making a point, since y'all seem to be so intent on saying Kyrie is so good a shooter.

Kyrie Irving:

10-to-15 feet:  48%
16-to-23 feet:  49.2%
Combined:  48.7% on 220 attempts

Rajon Rondo: 

10-to-15 feet:  30.8%
16-to-23 feet:  50.8%
Combined:  47.2% on 148 attempts

Irving takes more mid-range shots, and he makes a higher percentage of them.  My guess is that he gets less open looks than Rondo, too.  Regardless, there's no objective way to say Rondo is better at mid-range shooting than Irving.


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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2013, 02:37:00 PM »

Online BballTim

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Yet... Rondo brings such a bigger impact to the game than Kyrie can EVER have.
Bigger impact to the stat sheet, maybe. Bigger impact to the game, not really.

  Clearly that's not the case. Rondo's got 26 career triple doubles, Kirie's got 25 career games of 25 points or more. Comparing team records when they don't put up those numbers to when they do, the Cavs go from a winning percentage of 25% when he gets less than 25 points to 44% when he gets the points. The Celts go from 61% to 88% when Rondo gets a triple double.

  I know people here like to look down their noses at triple doubles because Rondo racks them up but I've yet to hear an explanation about why such meaningless numbers have such a drastic impact on our ability to win games.

 

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