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[RJ87]

Tim Duncan >Kevin Garnett

Now that's a discussion.

[ssspence]

I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.

This, though I don't think this is new.

The reason Rondo is not more valuable (and IMO why Ainge would like to trade him), is that he struggles to win games in the 4th Q. He can't carry a team from a scoring perspective, and he's a liability at the FT line. This why we're subjected to that PP step-back for every last shot. It's arguably why we miss Ray Allen the most.

Magic Johnson has said this about Rondo many times. To take the next step, to be the franchise player and carry the team, to be a true MVP candidate, he needs to be able to score. Easier said than done...

Irving has that. An NBA team would take that ability over a few assists any day.

For those arguing Rondo would be the choice over Irving, please see the above again. Rondo avoids scoring opportunities in the 4th Q because he's scared of the FT line, and doesn't have the ability to make an impact from long range. It's a problem for a franchise player.

This season, Rondo's averaging 42% of the Q4 points Irving' scoring. Because as we saw last night, Irving can go to the basket and win a game.

[CelticConcourse]

I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.

This, though I don't think this is new.

The reason Rondo is not more valuable (and IMO why Ainge would like to trade him), is that he struggles to win games in the 4th Q. He can't carry a team from a scoring perspective, and he's a liability at the FT line. This why we're subjected to that PP step-back for every last shot. It's arguably why we miss Ray Allen the most.

Magic Johnson has said this about Rondo many times. To take the next step, to be the franchise player and carry the team, to be a true MVP candidate, he needs to be able to score. Easier said than done...

Irving has that. An NBA team would take that ability over a few assists any day.

For those arguing Rondo would be the choice over Irving, please see the above again. Rondo avoids scoring opportunities in the 4th Q because he's scared of the FT line, and doesn't have the ability to make an impact from long range. It's a problem for a franchise player.

This season, Rondo's averaging 42% of the Q4 points Irving' scoring. Because as we saw last night, Irving can go to the basket and win a game.

Who gets more assists and rebounds in the fourth quarter?
Who has a better midrange FG%?

I mean that three vs. Philly in Game 7 really showed us his scarediness.

[PhoSita]

I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.

This, though I don't think this is new.

The reason Rondo is not more valuable (and IMO why Ainge would like to trade him), is that he struggles to win games in the 4th Q. He can't carry a team from a scoring perspective, and he's a liability at the FT line. This why we're subjected to that PP step-back for every last shot. It's arguably why we miss Ray Allen the most.

Magic Johnson has said this about Rondo many times. To take the next step, to be the franchise player and carry the team, to be a true MVP candidate, he needs to be able to score. Easier said than done...

Irving has that. An NBA team would take that ability over a few assists any day.

For those arguing Rondo would be the choice over Irving, please see the above again. Rondo avoids scoring opportunities in the 4th Q because he's scared of the FT line, and doesn't have the ability to make an impact from long range. It's a problem for a franchise player.

This season, Rondo's averaging 42% of the Q4 points Irving' scoring. Because as we saw last night, Irving can go to the basket and win a game.

Yeah, we've seen this with players like Rose and Paul before, too.

All they need to do is keep the game close until the fourth quarter and then they can go 1 on 1 and dominate.

A team led by Rondo needs to win by getting stops, or by getting hot from outside late in the game when opposing defenses really clamp down.  Rondo's defense isn't even all that good lately, so other than passing out to guys for low efficiency mid-range jumpers, what does he do in the 4th quarter?

I'll take Kyrie any day.  Rondo is a very nice player, but having a guy who can win you a game by himself on a consistent basis like that is just more valuable in this league.

[scaryjerry]

Tim Duncan >Kevin Garnett

Now that's a discussion.

hmmmm no that's a fact.

[CelticConcourse]

Tim Duncan >Kevin Garnett

Now that's a discussion.

hmmmm no that's a fact.

Debatable still.

[scaryjerry]

Tim Duncan >Kevin Garnett

Now that's a discussion.

hmmmm no that's a fact.

Debatable still.

nope...Duncan had a better career and is currently better kg snuck in about 2 better seasons tops

[Roy H.]

Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

  And I'd say it's underrated by people who think we don't need it because we won a title with 3 primary scoring options (all in their primes) in the starting lineup in 2008.

  Don't know if you saw this or not, but last spring someone was trying to show that John Wall lost a lot of assists because his teammates couldn't shoot. He looked at all the Wizards "scoring opportunities" from Wall passes and compared that to all the other scoring opportunities. He found that Wall's passes led to scores about 9% more often than all other opportunities. For comparison, he did the same with Rondo and saw that the jump in scoring from Rondo's passes was over twice as much, just over 20%.
 http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

  Considering the amount of assists Rondo gets that's a very significant difference in efficiency.

I'm not seeing the conclusions you are.  Maybe it's in the spreadsheet that isn't loading for me?

Here's the conclusion I'm reading:

Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

That data can be read in two ways:

1.  Wall's teammates suck compared to Rondo's; or

2.  Rondo gets his guys in better position to convert shots

The answer is probably somewhere in between.  However, a study that shows that in a perfect world, John Wall would have more assists than Rajon Rondo doesn't strike me as all that meaningful, or particularly complimentary of Rondo.

[snively]

Roy, you are always so easily smitten with the scoring PGs.  I remember you were ready to trade Rondo for Jennings after the 55 point game.

Irving is still a poor defender, mediocre playmaker.  Just an electric scorer.

[Chris]

I absolutely think Kyrie is better than Rondo.  He wasn't the #1 pick after missing nearly the entire season of his freshman year for nothing.  He is an absolute stud. 

And I think if you give him someone to pass to, he would be much more than just a scorer.  He has excellent instincts, and Chris Paulesque skills.

With that said, he has also been pretty brittle so far in his career, so while he is a superstar in the making, there is also a level of treading carefully.

[Roy H.]

Roy, you are always so easily smitten with the scoring PGs.  I remember you were ready to trade Rondo for Jennings after the 55 point game.

Irving is still a poor defender, mediocre playmaker.  Just an electric scorer.

Kyrie Irving was a bad defender last year.  This year, he's been well above-average, which is consistent with his reputation coming into the league.

[RyNye]

Kyrie Irving was a bad defender last year.  This year, he's been well above-average, which is consistent with his reputation coming into the league.

Well above average? What are you talking about? His defense has improved, but he has not been nearly above average. The Cavs are a pretty terrible defensive team as a whole, but they are even worse when Kyrie is on the court.

That part of his game has yet to dramatically improve. Still very sub-par.

[Roy H.]

Kyrie Irving was a bad defender last year.  This year, he's been well above-average, which is consistent with his reputation coming into the league.

Well above average? What are you talking about? His defense has improved, but he has not been nearly above average. The Cavs are a pretty terrible defensive team as a whole, but they are even worse when Kyrie is on the court.

That part of his game has yet to dramatically improve. Still very sub-par.

He ranks 95th in the league in points allowed per possession.  That puts him somewhere between the 20th and 25th percentile of all NBA players.

On isolation plays, he ranks 40th.

Despite his terrible teammates, Irving's defense has been good this year.  Again, this is consistent with his pre-draft reputation.

[StartOrien]

That data can be read in two ways:

1.  Wall's teammates suck compared to Rondo's; or

2.  Rondo gets his guys in better position to convert shots

The answer is probably somewhere in between.  However, a study that shows that in a perfect world, John Wall would have more assists than Rajon Rondo doesn't strike me as all that meaningful, or particularly complimentary of Rondo.

I'm a big believer in the rhythm of the game, and I think one thing Rondo does better than any other player in the league is to not only hit players in stride, but put the ball in the perfect place for them to catch and shoot/finish.

For a shooter, there's a huge difference between catching the ball at your chest and catching at your stomach.

[kozlodoev]

Kyrie Irving was a bad defender last year.  This year, he's been well above-average, which is consistent with his reputation coming into the league.

Well above average? What are you talking about? His defense has improved, but he has not been nearly above average. The Cavs are a pretty terrible defensive team as a whole, but they are even worse when Kyrie is on the court.

That part of his game has yet to dramatically improve. Still very sub-par.

He ranks 95th in the league in points allowed per possession.  That puts him somewhere between the 20th and 25th percentile of all NBA players.

On isolation plays, he ranks 40th.

Despite his terrible teammates, Irving's defense has been good this year.  Again, this is consistent with his pre-draft reputation.

If Rondo is such a great defender, and Irving is so poor (given that this is a Rondo vs Irving thread), how come Irving completely torched Rondo, and not the other way around?