Author Topic: Kyrie > Rondo  (Read 16053 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2013, 10:31:22 AM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2013
  • Tommy Points: 198
Cleveland couldn't  possibly be that stupid. to trade .  Kyrie is without a doubt superior to ROndo...ROndo is mentally WEAK and not a very good leader. Give me Kyrie anyday.

CP3 would have NEVER EVER  EVER let his team down , like ROndo has these past few games. IF Rondo was so great why can't he take over like Westbrooke, CP3 , Irving , Rose ect ...becasue he is a TERRIBLE shooter., and not a smart player.

Do it in a heart beat.

TP...Yeah I agree with that

And I remember the age-old question of "Was Rondo's talent carrying the Big 3 (Paul, Ray, KG) for the Celtics to be successful, or was it the other way around?"

Guess now that Pierce and KG are getting old, and Ray is traded, we now we got our answer

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2013, 10:33:31 AM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8876
  • Tommy Points: 1152
Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

It's his personal opinion, but I question how unfounded it is.

A couple of years ago, Danny tried to move Rondo for Steph Curry, and was rebuffed.  Similarly, New Orleans indicated it had no interest in Rondo, despite him being on a very good contract relative to his talent.

Now, that's just two GMs out of 30, but I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.

You are referencing extremely flimsy, unsourced and unconfirmed rumors as fact here.  I just wanted to clarify that. 
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov/B. Wright/A. Nicholson

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2013, 10:35:28 AM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8876
  • Tommy Points: 1152
Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

Opinions tend to be personal. As for unfounded... do you think I'm incorrect? It's conceivable 1 or 2 would deviate, but they'd likely be one of the lower half of NBA GMs (King, Smith, Petrie, etc), and they'd be making a mistake.

Yes, I think you are incorrect.
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov/B. Wright/A. Nicholson

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2013, 10:40:04 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23069
  • Tommy Points: 1082
Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

I'd say your imaginary scouting reports are pretty poor.  Maybe they only have player ages and ignore their contributions?

As others have noted, you are greatly underestimating KG's contributions last year.  And Paul shot a poor percentage in last year's playoffs, but mitigated that by getting to the line (6 times a game, more than Westbrook and 1 less than Durant).  The only players to get to the line more in the playoffs than Paul were Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade.  I'd call those players elite scorers.

Getting to the line is a valuable skill for an elite player.  You might want to update that fact on your Rajon Rondo scouting report.

  Obviously if you're trying to claim that PP scores like Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade because he gets to the line a lot I'm not the one with the outdated scouting report.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2013, 10:44:20 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

I'd say your imaginary scouting reports are pretty poor.  Maybe they only have player ages and ignore their contributions?

As others have noted, you are greatly underestimating KG's contributions last year.  And Paul shot a poor percentage in last year's playoffs, but mitigated that by getting to the line (6 times a game, more than Westbrook and 1 less than Durant).  The only players to get to the line more in the playoffs than Paul were Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade.  I'd call those players elite scorers.

Getting to the line is a valuable skill for an elite player.  You might want to update that fact on your Rajon Rondo scouting report.

  Obviously if you're trying to claim that PP scores like Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade because he gets to the line a lot I'm not the one with the outdated scouting report.

Not claiming he scores like them.  Merely claiming his ability to get to the line in last year's playoffs was still at a high level.  Obviously if you're claiming I said that he scores like LeBron, maybe you are just having trouble comprehending your imaginary scouting reports.  Please carefully read my post again and read what is actually there instead of putting words in my mouth.  But then again, why let facts get in the way of smug one-liners.

Your scouting reports aren't outdated, they're just wrong.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2013, 10:45:31 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9816
  • Tommy Points: 553
Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

Opinions tend to be personal. As for unfounded... do you think I'm incorrect? It's conceivable 1 or 2 would deviate, but they'd likely be one of the lower half of NBA GMs (King, Smith, Petrie, etc), and they'd be making a mistake.

Yes, I think you are incorrect.
I agree. I'm sure more than half of NBA GMs will take Rondo, mostly because I firmly believe more than half of NBA GMs are completely incompetent.

Sure, Rondo is a great piece, but he's just not well-suited  to be the first piece of a rebuilding team.
Managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »

Offline MBunge

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2494
  • Tommy Points: 213
Cleveland couldn't  possibly be that stupid. to trade .  Kyrie is without a doubt superior to ROndo...ROndo is mentally WEAK and not a very good leader. Give me Kyrie anyday.

CP3 would have NEVER EVER  EVER let his team down , like ROndo has these past few games. IF Rondo was so great why can't he take over like Westbrooke, CP3 , Irving , Rose ect ...becasue he is a TERRIBLE shooter., and not a smart player.

Do it in a heart beat.

TP...Yeah I agree with that

And I remember the age-old question of "Was Rondo's talent carrying the Big 3 (Paul, Ray, KG) for the Celtics to be successful, or was it the other way around?"

Guess now that Pierce and KG are getting old, and Ray is traded, we now we got our answer

I think there's a lot of criticisms you can make against Rondo, but that's ridiculous.  Rajon Rondo should not be walking the ball up halfcourt and pounding the dribble for 10 to 15 seconds of the shot clock waiting for one of Doc's rigid and complex plays to unfold in order to get someone other than Rondo a shot.  Just about everything about this team's offense and defense is still tailored around KG and Pierce and Rondo's in handcuffs because of it.

And by the way....is Wilcox still hurt?  I can understand Barbosa not playing, but Wilcox has proven that he's one guy who can play with Rondo.

Mike

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2013, 10:59:07 AM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8876
  • Tommy Points: 1152
I'm very impressed with Kyrie Irving.  The kid is a fantastic scorer, and he's only 20 years old. 

Before I anoint him as a surefire All-time great, I'd like to see him play in a playoff series or two first.  He averages about 5.5 assists per game and turns the ball over about as much as Rondo per game.  I appreciate the argument that these numbers are mainly due to the teammates he plays with, but I wonder how he would handle consistent, aggressive traps and double teams by a good defensive playoff team. 

On the other hand, fans love to rant and rail about Rondo's regular season inconsistency, but he has proven over the course of the past four years that he can lead his team deep into the playoffs.  He has proven that he can mix up when he scores and when he passes, depending on how the defense plays him.  His unpredictability and unique style make him built for the playoffs.  He's really hard to game plan against.  Opposing coaches aren't sure what to do with him.  Trapping him aggressively is not a good idea because of his vision and playing him to pass is proving to be a less and less effective strategy against him, particularly in the playoffs. 

I suspect the Celtics will be in the playoffs again this year, and when they do get there, I expect Rondo to be one of the toughest players to deal with in a seven game series situation in the league, as he's proven over and over again to be over the course of the last four years. 

Kyrie Irving is putting up great regular season numbers as a very young player on a very bad team.  Because we've never seen it happen, I think there are many more question marks about how he would perform in a playoff series.  I think it would be wise to at least wait to see how he answers some of those questions before declaring him hands down a more valuable player than one of the best playoff performers of the current NBA era. 
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov/B. Wright/A. Nicholson

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2013, 11:02:17 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11334
  • Tommy Points: 2412
Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

Opinions tend to be personal. As for unfounded... do you think I'm incorrect? It's conceivable 1 or 2 would deviate, but they'd likely be one of the lower half of NBA GMs (King, Smith, Petrie, etc), and they'd be making a mistake.

Yes, I think you are incorrect.
I agree. I'm sure more than half of NBA GMs will take Rondo, mostly because I firmly believe more than half of NBA GMs are completely incompetent.

Sure, Rondo is a great piece, but he's just not well-suited  to be the first piece of a rebuilding team.
I wouldn't call a GM incompetent for taking Rondo over Irving.  Irving seems to have trouble staying healthy.  what good is a top PG if he can't play.  Rondo's proven to be very durable.

However, if I was starting from the ground up on a rebuilding project, I'd take Irving mostly because he's much younger than Rondo and will be in his prime when the team develops.  On the flip side though, Rondo may be the better player to have to help a young team develop and learn how to win and develop an unselfish team attitude.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2013, 11:09:21 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9816
  • Tommy Points: 553
I wouldn't call a GM incompetent for taking Rondo over Irving.  Irving seems to have trouble staying healthy.  what good is a top PG if he can't play.  Rondo's proven to be very durable.
He's missed 26 out of 109 total team games over the last two seasons. He's 20 years old. Not sure that makes him injury prone quite yet.
Managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2013, 11:12:05 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23069
  • Tommy Points: 1082
Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

I'd say your imaginary scouting reports are pretty poor.  Maybe they only have player ages and ignore their contributions?

As others have noted, you are greatly underestimating KG's contributions last year.  And Paul shot a poor percentage in last year's playoffs, but mitigated that by getting to the line (6 times a game, more than Westbrook and 1 less than Durant).  The only players to get to the line more in the playoffs than Paul were Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade.  I'd call those players elite scorers.

Getting to the line is a valuable skill for an elite player.  You might want to update that fact on your Rajon Rondo scouting report.

  Obviously if you're trying to claim that PP scores like Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade because he gets to the line a lot I'm not the one with the outdated scouting report.

Not claiming he scores like them.  Merely claiming his ability to get to the line in last year's playoffs was still at a high level.  Obviously if you're claiming I said that he scores like LeBron, maybe you are just having trouble comprehending your imaginary scouting reports.  Please carefully read my post again and read what is actually there instead of putting words in my mouth.  But then again, why let facts get in the way of smug one-liners.

Your scouting reports aren't outdated, they're just wrong.

  You seem to be saying 2 things pertinent to the discussion about whether PP is an elite scorer. You're admitting that PP doesn't score like the elite scorers in the league while at the same time claiming that my statement that PP (while playing hurt in the playoffs) wasn't scoring like an elite scorer. Pick a side in the discussion and get back to me.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11334
  • Tommy Points: 2412
I wouldn't call a GM incompetent for taking Rondo over Irving.  Irving seems to have trouble staying healthy.  what good is a top PG if he can't play.  Rondo's proven to be very durable.
He's missed 26 out of 109 total team games over the last two seasons. He's 20 years old. Not sure that makes him injury prone quite yet.
perhaps but how many games has Rondo missed in the years he's played (barring suspensions naturally)?  Irving's health is something that has to be taken into account IMHO

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2013, 11:33:07 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9816
  • Tommy Points: 553
I wouldn't call a GM incompetent for taking Rondo over Irving.  Irving seems to have trouble staying healthy.  what good is a top PG if he can't play.  Rondo's proven to be very durable.
He's missed 26 out of 109 total team games over the last two seasons. He's 20 years old. Not sure that makes him injury prone quite yet.
perhaps but how many games has Rondo missed in the years he's played (barring suspensions naturally)?  Irving's health is something that has to be taken into account IMHO
Why should we be "barring suspensions". How is being unable to stay on the floor because you're being a punk any better than unable to stay on the floor because you're injured?
Managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2013, 11:36:14 AM »

Offline wiley

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2358
  • Tommy Points: 158
Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

Opinions tend to be personal. As for unfounded... do you think I'm incorrect? It's conceivable 1 or 2 would deviate, but they'd likely be one of the lower half of NBA GMs (King, Smith, Petrie, etc), and they'd be making a mistake.

Yes, I think you are incorrect.
I agree. I'm sure more than half of NBA GMs will take Rondo, mostly because I firmly believe more than half of NBA GMs are completely incompetent.

Sure, Rondo is a great piece, but he's just not well-suited  to be the first piece of a rebuilding team.

What qualities must a "first piece" have?  It seems you're saying the first piece must be the best scorer on the team, but I'm sure you'd agree that KG is/was also a great first piece due to his defense and leadership.  And it's easy to think of dominant centers like Dwight or maybe Cousins and Drummond before long as first pieces. 

Seems to me you take your rebuilding pieces in whatever order they happen to fall to you, where prudent taking a player whose skill set meshes well with the other pieces, with a keen eye on best player available of course. 

I ask because I'm not a fan of saying a team should be built this way or that, and each new great team seems to have followed a formula like no other formula before.  If New Orleans grabs Dwight Howard this offseason and they win a title in two years, who would you say was their first piece?  The rookie Anthony Davis?  Howard because he's the biggest star?  Eric Gordon for being there the longest?  Greivis Vasquez? 

If we're left in a year or two with Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sully and Fab, then Rondo is in fact the first piece, and we'll need to add one to two superstar level talents to start moving in the direction of contender. 

I agree with you that at that point if you have to trade a piece to get an even better piece, you do it, but that depends on how close your team is to turning the corner to greatness.  If we could add Lebron and Ibaka, just for example, to the above starting 5, then you don't go and trade Rondo for Wiggins (unless you actually believe it's a present upgrade as well as future).  You sign the two guys and go immediately for a championship.  If there's no one to sign then yeah, turn Rondo into a younger, greener, but potentially greater player.

It all depends, doesn't it?  If what people mean by "first piece" is best player, then it's better to just say best player.  But the logic gets fuzzy and I don't get the part where we're supposed to give up Rondo because we can't win it all with him as our best player-- People seem to be saying it would be impossible to get players better than Rondo to join him.  I don't get that.  Just need cap space, no?




Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2013, 11:39:26 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23069
  • Tommy Points: 1082
Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

  And I'd say it's underrated by people who think we don't need it because we won a title with 3 primary scoring options (all in their primes) in the starting lineup in 2008.

  Don't know if you saw this or not, but last spring someone was trying to show that John Wall lost a lot of assists because his teammates couldn't shoot. He looked at all the Wizards "scoring opportunities" from Wall passes and compared that to all the other scoring opportunities. He found that Wall's passes led to scores about 9% more often than all other opportunities. For comparison, he did the same with Rondo and saw that the jump in scoring from Rondo's passes was over twice as much, just over 20%.
 http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

  Considering the amount of assists Rondo gets that's a very significant difference in efficiency.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog