Author Topic: Kyrie > Rondo  (Read 13434 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline soap07

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1493
  • Tommy Points: 140
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2013, 11:12:45 PM »
Quote
Kyrie is a gunner, a darn good gunner, but that is it.  Maybe as he gets older, that will change.  Until then, he does not deserve to be mentioned with the likes of CP3, Rondo, etc..

A couple things. Rondo doesn't deserve to be mentioned with the likes of CP3 either.

Rondo may get a lot of assists, but there isn't much evidence that he runs an offense well. Look at the team's efficiency over the last couple years. This year, the C's have the 20th best offense. Last year - 24th. The year before - 18th. There are, of course, other factors: Lack of offensive rebounding and injuries, for example. But everyone assumes that Rondo is one of the best point guards in the league that 'makes teammates better' in a way that Rose, Irving and Deron don't. Meanwhile, there is no real evidence to that.


Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6175
  • Tommy Points: 382
  • Jeff Green
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2013, 11:13:44 PM »
First he should lead the league in assists.

Then field goal percentage.

Then start to take charges.

And dominate a game when he can't shoot well.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Offline soap07

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1493
  • Tommy Points: 140
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 11:18:59 PM »
First he should lead the league in assists.

Then field goal percentage.

Then start to take charges.

And dominate a game when he can't shoot well.

That's great that Rondo has a high field goal percentage. Irving has a far better TS% and eFG%.

I'm also glad that Rondo takes charges since the rest of his defense has been quite poor this year.

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 11:19:09 PM »


To be fair, I think Kyrie is behind only Paul, Westbrook, and Rose at the PG spot.  Already.  In a year or two I think he'll only be looking up at CP3.

p.s. watch out I think I hear BBallTim coming

Ha, this might be my favorite line in a post ever, TP.  I wish I could give multiple TPs.  I'm waiting for the dig at CP3's playoff record (or Kyrie's lack of a playoff record), ignoring the three Hall of Famers we won titles with.  Any minute now.

On the topic at hand, I am certainly willing to consider the possibility of Kyrie being superior to Rondo.  I haven't seen enough of him to tell, but his skill set seems to make his potential ceiling higher.

Just a thing about Rondo. He won a championship with those 3 HOF's before he was even close to entering his prime.

When Rondo came into his own was probably the 2009 playoffs (while KG was injured) and the ensuing season after when the Celts made the finals.

Kg and Ray were both 34 at the time and Pierce was 32. They are HOF players but they were in their mid 30's (and have aged since then). I wouldn't consider Sheed or Shaq to be a HOF that played with Rondo either. Technically they are  (well maybe not Sheed)but Shaq could barely even run.

You might as well list other great players that played with us like JO, Michael Finley, Stephon Marbury, and Sam Cassell as well.
Sorry for the rant but it's just a pet peeve when people talk about Rondo playing with HOF's and thats why he has been successful when he pretty much had one year with them (maybe) at HOF level and it was before Rondo was even really good.

You think Chris Paul would rather have a 22 year old Blake Griffin or a 34 year old one?

I know id rather have a 22 year old KG

That's an enormous stretch. KG, Paul, and Ray were all still all-stars during Rondo's successful playoff runs,  in their "prime" or not.  KG was a candidate for league MVP the year we won the title.  Those three Hall of Famers that I mentioned were All-Stars in the years we contended.  Pretending they were washed up because they weren't in their prime is a pet peeve of mine and a huge underestimation of their skills.  The insinuation that KG, Paul, and Ray have been washed up during Rondo's success is inaccurate.

You think Chris Paul would rather have a 29 year old David West or a 34 year old KG, 34 year old Ray Allen, and 32 year old Paul Pierce?

I know id rather have the latter group.

Let's also not compare Blake Griffin to Kevin Garnett just yet.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 11:29:00 PM by celtsfan84 »

Online PhoSita

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4708
  • Tommy Points: 301
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 11:20:26 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.
"You're never as good as you think you are, you're never as bad as you think you are, and you're never far from either."

- Brad Stevens, the Philosopher Coach.

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 11:23:18 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.

How has Tristan Thompson been for them?  His stats aren't terrible, but I don't know enough about him to judge properly.  Does he bring good energy?  Set good screens?  Do things that don't show up on the stat sheet?

Offline nickagneta

  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26101
  • Tommy Points: 1878
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 11:29:52 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.
Fact is this is Roy's opinion. Stats say the Celtics have a more efficient offense than Cleveland. Given he scores 25% of their points, I think it fair to say Irving is not running an offense better than Rondo, he's just running an offense that gets him not his team points better than Rondo does.
DKC Brooklyn Nets
Pick 2 New Orleans Pelicans
PG: George Hill/Jameer Nelson
SG: Victor Oladipo/Mario Chalmers/Kobe Bryant
SF: Chandler Parsons/P.J. Tucker
PF: Anthony Davis/Brandon Bass/Mike Scott
C: DeAndre Jordan/Enes Kanter

Online PhoSita

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4708
  • Tommy Points: 301
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 11:33:00 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.

How has Tristan Thompson been for them?  His stats aren't terrible, but I don't know enough about him to judge properly.  Does he bring good energy?  Set good screens?  Do things that don't show up on the stat sheet?

Since Varejao went down T.T. has been pretty darn good.  Averaging close to 10 and 10 in 30 minutes or something like that.
"You're never as good as you think you are, you're never as bad as you think you are, and you're never far from either."

- Brad Stevens, the Philosopher Coach.

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22252
  • Tommy Points: -29454
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 11:34:33 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.
Fact is this is Roy's opinion. Stats say the Celtics have a more efficient offense than Cleveland. Given he scores 25% of their points, I think it fair to say Irving is not running an offense better than Rondo, he's just running an offense that gets him not his team points better than Rondo does.

??

The Cavs rank 22nd in offensive rating, the Celts rank 26th.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Offline celtsfan84

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1182
  • Tommy Points: 80
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 11:35:36 PM »


Quote
Rondo can run a team offense better.

You would think so.  Cleveland's offense has been better than the Celtics' this year, though, despite having less talented players.



Kind of a shocking indictment, huh?

Says a lot about how far having an elite 1 on 1 scorer and some athletic rebounders in the frontcourt will take you.
Fact is this is Roy's opinion. Stats say the Celtics have a more efficient offense than Cleveland. Given he scores 25% of their points, I think it fair to say Irving is not running an offense better than Rondo, he's just running an offense that gets him not his team points better than Rondo does.

Purely looking at the stats, their Offensive Rating (points produced per 100 possessions) is slightly higher than Boston's, (and was slightly better last year too), so it's a reasonable statement to make.

Offline nickagneta

  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26101
  • Tommy Points: 1878
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 11:38:19 PM »
Offensive efficiency

Boston 100.2
Cleveland 98.9

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Boston 20th
Cleveland 27th
DKC Brooklyn Nets
Pick 2 New Orleans Pelicans
PG: George Hill/Jameer Nelson
SG: Victor Oladipo/Mario Chalmers/Kobe Bryant
SF: Chandler Parsons/P.J. Tucker
PF: Anthony Davis/Brandon Bass/Mike Scott
C: DeAndre Jordan/Enes Kanter

Offline soap07

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1493
  • Tommy Points: 140
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 11:41:12 PM »
Nick, the Celtics offensive efficiency with Rondo on the court: 103.4. The Cavs efficiency with Irving on the court: 107.1.

Actually, and this is interesting, the Celtics offense this year has been BETTER with Rondo OFF the court (105.6). Now, I don't put too much stock in on/off stats because Rondo is on the court for more than 3 quarters of a game, making the sample size of him off the court too small for a truly indicative comparison....but interesting nonetheless. 

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS1.HTM#onoff

http://www.82games.com/1213/12CLE1.HTM#onoff

Online Eddie20

  • Ray Allen
  • **
  • Posts: 2358
  • Tommy Points: 147
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 11:45:27 PM »
Definitely. That's why it was almost comical when some on here were saying they wouldn't do a Rondo for Irving/Varejao trade a few ago.

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

  • Antoine Walker
  • *****
  • Posts: 5747
  • Tommy Points: 741
  • I'm a Paul Heyman guy.
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 11:49:08 PM »
First he should lead the league in assists.

Then field goal percentage.

Then start to take charges.

And dominate a game when he can't shoot well.

This!

I know Kyrie is a superstar, but to me he's just a better scorer with a much better skill set than Rajon. I think Rajon is better at everything else.

#KEEPHUMP
DKC Golden State We Warriors
http://tinyurl.com/n8py37p
Pick 2: PHX Suns
Jrue Holiday, Dragic, Gay, Te. Jones, Bogut, Draymond, Amar'e, AK47, Mayo, Marcus Thornton, Jason Smith

Offline nickagneta

  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26101
  • Tommy Points: 1878
Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2013, 11:49:57 PM »
Definitely. That's why it was almost comical when some on here were saying they wouldn't do a Rondo for Irving/Varejao trade a few ago.
I would would definitely have done a Rondo for Irving and AV trade. If AV ever gets healthy thats a steal of a trade, but then again, that's the kicker. Will AV ever be healthy during his contract ever again.
DKC Brooklyn Nets
Pick 2 New Orleans Pelicans
PG: George Hill/Jameer Nelson
SG: Victor Oladipo/Mario Chalmers/Kobe Bryant
SF: Chandler Parsons/P.J. Tucker
PF: Anthony Davis/Brandon Bass/Mike Scott
C: DeAndre Jordan/Enes Kanter

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog