Author Topic: Start Green, Pierce sixth man  (Read 16266 times)

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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2013, 09:04:38 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star
He's 6th in the voting, however I don't think he is playing better than all but 5 frontcourt players in the East. He's going to be in the discussion no matter how he's playing because he is Paul Pierce. Just like Andrew Bynum has 96k votes even though he hasn't played one minute this season. Doesn't mean he is playing at an all star level.

I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2013, 09:05:13 PM »

Offline blink

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2013, 09:07:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.


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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2013, 09:09:21 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.


But those stats for Green fall right in line with his stats from when he was a start for those multiple seasons with the Thunder.



Green has proven what he is in the NBA.  I don't understand why he is suddenly going to become a different player starting for the Celtics then the one he has been off the bench for the Celtics and as a starting F with the Thunder. 

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2013, 09:12:03 PM »

Offline blink

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

As far as I know JG hasn't started 1 game for the celtics since he was traded here correct?  I don't think his stats in 2010 when he was playing for OKC has a lot of impact on whether or not he should get a chance to prove himself here.  Some players play better starting. 

I don't know what it would hurt to give him a chance for a few games to further evaluate the fit.  It's not like it is going to upset our dream season we are having right now.  It doesn't mean you bench PP for the rest of the year or trade him.  Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.  It might help PP come back and play better?

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2013, 09:12:26 PM »

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I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.

Statistically, Pierce still ranks in the top 15% or so of all NBA defenders.  He may have lost a step, but he's not bad on that end.


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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2013, 09:14:57 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.



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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2013, 09:16:29 PM »

Offline blink

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.

But the whole issue isn't about if PP is playing better than JG then is it?  It is really about what is better for the team?  Does PP help the team more by becoming our stud 6th man?  Maybe with Green starting and PP off the bench you get more out of the 3 position than you do right now?  I dunno.  It probably isn't our biggest issue.  But I just wonder why everyone is so against Green starting a game or two.  Sheesh everyone else on the whole roster has almost started at least one or two games.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2013, 09:18:34 PM »

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.

But the whole issue isn't about if PP is playing better than JG then is it?  It is really about what is better for the team?  Does PP help the team more by becoming our stud 6th man?  Maybe with Green starting and PP off the bench you get more out of the 3 position than you do right now?  I dunno.  It probably isn't our biggest issue.  But I just wonder why everyone is so against Green starting a game or two.  Sheesh everyone else on the whole roster has almost started at least one or two games.

Our starting lineup is underperforming right now.  Our SG and PF position are near the bottom of the league in terms of point differential.  I just don't believe that weakening the SF position, and the starting lineup in general, benefits the team.


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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2013, 09:23:25 PM »

Offline blink

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Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.



 

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2013, 09:25:05 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.

I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.


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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2013, 09:29:47 PM »

Offline blink

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Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.

I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.

Roy, I said exactly the same thing.  See the last comment on P5 of this tread.  I never said we have to bench PP to try out JG as a starter.  I also never said we should permanently bench PP.  I think his legs look shot.  He needs a couple of DNPs.  Just like I said earlier.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2013, 09:53:50 PM »

Offline cltc5

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This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2013, 10:40:14 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

  If the Spurs had a coach as good as Pop they'd have won a title or two in the last 5 years.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2013, 11:45:56 PM »

Offline j804

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Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star
He's 6th in the voting, however I don't think he is playing better than all but 5 frontcourt players in the East. He's going to be in the discussion no matter how he's playing because he is Paul Pierce. Just like Andrew Bynum has 96k votes even though he hasn't played one minute this season. Doesn't mean he is playing at an all star level.

I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.
I love Pierce but rather someone more deserving takes it, he shouldn't be there.
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