Author Topic: Start Green, Pierce sixth man  (Read 8409 times)

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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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might as well try it , see what happens.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2013, 05:07:57 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Who would be the Celtics Duncan/Parker in terms of scoring?



Who would be the Celtics Durrant/Westbrook?


Rondo isn't that type of scorer, yet would likely be the 2nd best offensive weapon after KG with a starting Green.
I'm not saying to copy OKC or SAS: we don't have the bodies. I'm just pointing out that you don't need to start your best five players. This is a team game, a match-up game.

Although I would disagree that Rondo is not a scorer. He can do it, we know he can, he just doesn't. And facilitating is fine. Who is OKC's Rondo? Westbrook is a SG.

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And Green is not a myth.  He is consistent season after season.  It is as a role player.
Green is not the myth, the myth is "Green needs an opportunity". Who is asserting this? Nobody in this thread. You don't start Green expecting him to replace Paul Pierce, you start Green with the intention of getting Green. We know what he can do, let's use it.

Why not? What's the worst that can happen? We're already losing winnable games to garbage teams, you can't do any worse than that.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2013, 05:08:00 PM »

Online Roy H.

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The myth is a myth

Clearly, you haven't read the blog enough if you don't think a large percentage of bloggers think that Jeff Green's "struggles" are because of lack of playing time / lack of shots / lack of starting.

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Also, JG doesn't jack up bricks, and this will help keep me from losing my voice while watching games. Admittedly this is a selfish reason.

Paul Pierce has a .547 TS% and a .491 eFG%.  That's low by his standards, but significantly better than Green's .547 / .491.  If you're worried about bricks, the last thing you should want is a larger role for Jeff Green.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 05:09:35 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

So....we do what?  Sit around and twiddle our thumbs while waiting for a magic fairy to solve everything?  I'm not sure starting Green over Pierce is a good move, but this team is currently trying to hang onto the 8th playoff spot in the East and, with the season about half over, have essentially played maybe 4 or 5 really good games all season.  What's the downside to trying it?  Hurting Pierce's feelings?

Mike

Do something logical, like trying to feed Sully more in the post.  That makes a ton more sense than rewarding the schizophrenic Jeff Green with a larger role.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 05:13:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?

Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.

Since 2008, the strength of our team has been the starting lineup.  I think the team took a hit when that starting lineup was initially broken up, and I think sending Pierce to the bench would only make that things worse.  That's without even mentioning that Pierce is a vastly superior player to Green.  I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

This whole comment completely avoids the fact that Jeff Green is a superior defender at this point in his career, and that our whole system is built on defense.

But hey, by all means, let's ignore that.

I don't buy it.  In fact, they've both given up the exact same points allowed per possession.  That's with Pierce defending starters, and Green largely defending bench players.

Add in the offensive disparity, and there should be no question about who the better player is.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 05:19:33 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Clearly, you haven't read the blog enough if you don't think a large percentage of bloggers think that Jeff Green's "struggles" are because of lack of playing time / lack of shots / lack of starting.
This song is not about me. I say the myth is a myth because there are reasons to start JG that have nothing to do with his performance relative to Pierce. He doesn't need to be magic, he just has to do fun things like dunk on people and run in transition.

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Paul Pierce has a .547 TS% and a .491 eFG%.  That's low by his standards, but significantly better than Green's .547 / .491.  If you're worried about bricks, the last thing you should want is a larger role for Jeff Green.
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 05:23:46 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

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Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

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Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 05:32:05 PM »

Offline Interceptor

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Do you have any evidence for this?
Knowing someone would ask, I went out of my way to say that I didn't; this is kind of inflammatory for no particular reason.

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Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.
"Bench" doesn't mean he gets sent to Siberia. Pierce can still get a lot of minutes coming off the bench. We've had games where the bench scoring rescued the team. I don't see why Pierce can't be a part of this. I actually like it when both Pierce and Green are on the floor at the same time, and we get more of it with this scenario.

EDIT: and this is a team that started Collins for a little bit. That didn't work, but at least they tried something different.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 05:33:19 PM »

Offline ItStaysYang

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Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 05:35:14 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Do you have any evidence for this?
Knowing someone would ask, I went out of my way to say that I didn't; this is kind of inflammatory for no particular reason.

Quote
Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.
"Bench" doesn't mean he gets sent to Siberia. Pierce can still get a lot of minutes coming off the bench. We've had games where the bench scoring rescued the team. I don't see why Pierce can't be a part of this. I actually like it when both Pierce and Green are on the floor at the same time, and we get more of it with this scenario.


They already have someone off the bench that can do that if they would put the ball in his hand when Rondo is off the court and stop trying to fit him into the Ray role. 




I still think Terry can be a big time bench scorer for the Celtics if they let him do what was successful for him in the past. 


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 05:36:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?

I'm not following your point.  Because Danny Ainge gave him one?  Because he has a good agent?

Of course, Pierce is earning an even higher salary, so if that's relevant at all, I guess the job stays Pierce's.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 05:36:14 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?

A mistake.
Peace through Tyranny

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2013, 05:40:09 PM »

Offline cltc5

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No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?
this

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2013, 05:41:21 PM »

Offline Atzar

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He's done nothing to show that he deserves to start. 

I just don't think he's as talented as people think he is.  He has an inconsistent jumpshot, a rudimentary postgame, a poor first step, and an inability to change directions with the ball.  He's also not rebounding, but we expected this already.

If he's ever going to be reliable as a scorer, then he desperately needs to improve his footwork.  In my opinion, that's the root of many of his problems.  Better footwork would give him a greater ability to produce off the bounce, a much-improved ability to score in the post, and would improve his jumpshot by helping him with balance and mechanical consistency. 

Until then, he's going to be a guy who struggles to create offense despite excellent running and jumping ability for his size. 

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2013, 05:42:24 PM »

Offline MBunge

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let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems. 

Last 10 games, Pierce has been shooting 42% from the field.

Last 10 games, Green has been shooting 47% from the field.

The idea behind starting Green is to get the team playing differently.  It might work.  It might not.  But if this team can't go any farther than Pierce is going to carry it this year, why are we wasting time caring about a team that has no shot to win it all?

Mike

 

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