Author Topic: Start Green, Pierce sixth man  (Read 16278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2013, 06:01:18 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12749
  • Tommy Points: 1544

Green has never been a better player, is not a better player, and will never be a better player.  Pierce is HOF.  Green is not.  That is the TRUTH!

I still might be inclined to give Green a chance, however.  Don't know till you try.  Pierce should be able to beast on reserves and improve his efficiency, while lowering his overall minutes.  Green gets his chance to see if he is worth the loot.

Might as well find out what we got ASAP.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2013, 06:02:36 PM »

Offline Atzar

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9136
  • Tommy Points: 1649
Green is a below average starter.
I agree but I also think Green is well capable of becoming an above average starting small forward with a bit of work.

It's all in the footwork for him, but he hasn't shown progress in that area since he came into the league.  I'm not sure I'd expect him to suddenly get it now.  I'm hopeful, but not expectant. 

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2013, 06:02:57 PM »

Offline BleedGreen1989

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5561
  • Tommy Points: 568
Glen Davis was a role player until he went to Orlando.

He's put up better numbers and has grown as a player since becoming a starter down there.

Avery Bradley was basically a scrub until Ray went down and he was pushed into starting.


Jeff Green certainly "appears" to be a role player at this point, but who knows what he will do as a starter. He may stink it up or reach another level. I don't anyone can say for certain.


Again, his per-minute averages are the exact same now as they were in OKC.  Look at his Per-36 Minutes averages:

2010:  14.7 points
2011: 14.8 points
2011 (OKC): 14.8 points
2011 (BOS):  14.9 points
2013:  14.7 points

Regardless of whether Green is starting or coming off the bench, adjusting to a new team or comfortable in his role, playing in Boston or Oklahoma City, he's the same player.

I'm not thinking that Green will suddenly become an all star with starters minutes. To be honest, he'll probably play very similar minutes maybe Pierce a few less until the playoffs.

One of my biggest reasons is to help save Pierce for the playoffs. The dude is still 35
*CB Miami Heat*
Kyle Lowry, Dwayne Wade, 13th pick in even numbered rounds, 18th pick in odd numbered rounds.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2013, 06:08:11 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2632
  • Tommy Points: 442
yeah, who knows with Green but I also agree if nothing else it could save Pierce for the playoffs as BleedGreen said.

One questions I have about Green is "is it possible he might be more a more effective scorer playing off Rondo than he was playing off two ball dominant scorers in Durant and Westbrook in OKC?

That's a question I'd to see answered and probably the only way to find out is to load Green up on minutes and see what we "might have" as soon as possible.

Hell, start Green at off guard if you have to - Pierce at the three, bring Bradley early for Pierce if needed, move Pierce into the 3 spot slide Green to the four.

Just ****' mix it up a little.   

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2013, 06:13:32 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4849
  • Tommy Points: 386
I'm a bit surprised by the "it may not work, but we need to do something" argument, with few suggesting *why* this move will improve the team.
It isn't like it's being suggested for no reason. Pierce is a better player than Green, but Green has advantages over Pierce that can be exploited in the first unit. How about those transition buckets? How about attacking the rim? How about a post game?

Quote
Pierce's shooting has been off his career norms this year, but he's having an excellent, all-star caliber season.  He hasn't been the problem, and he's not the one who needs to have his role screwed with.
He can have an all-star season off the bench, too. I don't know how this has an impact on his role, since in either case he's being asked to score. Nobody is asking him to sit in the corner and shoot threes or run around screens all day.

I don't understand the implicit holiness of a starting position. Why can't we put Pierce against bench scrubs for easy points, and have him fresh on the floor at the end of close games? Isn't that still a good use of his talent?

Agree with this.  Nothing wrong with getting maximized at 35. 
He'll still be the big stud in town.  This move wouldn't take that away....

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2013, 06:25:43 PM »

Offline blink

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18040
  • Tommy Points: 1469
PP's last 4 games
21 for 59 from the field = 35%
3 for 19 from 3point = 16%

When PP and KG have horrible nights shooting the ball, and don't get to the line at all our team is going to be bad.  Plain and simple. I think everyone wants to blame the bench and the role players DA signed, but the real issue is that our main two guys are getting old.

I think the point of the original post is that PP's role might need to change a bit if we are going to go anywhere this year.  Unfortunately, we don't have an AB type spark player waiting to take his spot like we did with RA last year.

Now some have said that PP is having an all-star level year.  He has had a few spectacular games, but to me in my very general eye test (watching 90% of the games) he has slipped.  He can still have great nights, but they are very few and far between.

Unfortunately he is still our best go to scorer.  The real question is do you get more out of JG by starting him.  Maybe you get 90% of PP if he comes off the bench.  I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 06:31:20 PM by blink »

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 06:29:02 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4849
  • Tommy Points: 386
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 06:39:08 PM »

Offline 2short

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6080
  • Tommy Points: 428
forgive me for not reading through everything
i proposed this awhile ago and was attacked by many a person here

jeff green is not as good as paul pierce (at least normally, paul's been underperforming lately)

HOWEVER this is a move that to me makes the TEAM better.  Jeff Green is averaging 10 pts a game with no plays run for him and no real shots (compare shots per game).  Paul is going to get his points no matter how you look at it (he's that good a scorer).  With this move paul would get a rest on defense and still be in for end of games.  He (paul) has looked lackluster on rotations all season, green has been inconsistant yet his minutes and shots have as well.    His defense lately is BETTER than pp, he can fill the lanes better and we could run plays for him on the box.  The hate he gets is very odd as he has outplayed everyone off the bench except maybe sully.  This would bring more speed and athleticism to starters.  This could allow sully to start.  Starters:
rondo, bradley, green, sully, kg
subs:
terry, lee, pierce, bass, insert #2 center

2 main things i see with paul's game (hall of fame player, number retired) is not filling lanes on breaks and lacking on defensive rotations

if HONDO can come off bench to make team TEAM better why couldn't it work for pierce??


Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2013, 06:39:19 PM »

Offline badshar

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 588
  • Tommy Points: 72
I'm in. Why not? Worst that happens is we get our teeth kicked in by another crappy team. Let's also start Sullinger, and Bass is 13th man.

It would effectively keep Pierce's minutes down and we could finally see how Green performs as a starter. Bass can be waterboy

Bass being the waterboy.

That image...lol

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2013, 06:40:05 PM »

Offline clover

  • Front Page Moderator
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6130
  • Tommy Points: 315
One mitigating factor on those "Green's the same player" claims could be that he most often played the 4 in OKC, but I believe did better at the 3 when slotted there.  So his fully recovered and acclimated ceiling in Boston could be higher than in OKC if he primarily plays the 3.

Still, the larger issue could be that there are only so many changes left for Doc to try.  He can insert Sully into the starting rotation ahead of Bass and/or he can swap Green in for Pierce.  I don't see how many more shakeups are really feasible.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2013, 06:42:15 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4849
  • Tommy Points: 386
forgive me for not reading through everything
i proposed this awhile ago and was attacked by many a person here

jeff green is not as good as paul pierce (at least normally, paul's been underperforming lately)

HOWEVER this is a move that to me makes the TEAM better.  Jeff Green is averaging 10 pts a game with no plays run for him and no real shots (compare shots per game).  Paul is going to get his points no matter how you look at it (he's that good a scorer).  With this move paul would get a rest on defense and still be in for end of games.  He (paul) has looked lackluster on rotations all season, green has been inconsistant yet his minutes and shots have as well.    His defense lately is BETTER than pp, he can fill the lanes better and we could run plays for him on the box.  The hate he gets is very odd as he has outplayed everyone off the bench except maybe sully.  This would bring more speed and athleticism to starters.  This could allow sully to start.  Starters:
rondo, bradley, green, sully, kg
subs:
terry, lee, pierce, bass, insert #2 center

2 main things i see with paul's game (hall of fame player, number retired) is not filling lanes on breaks and lacking on defensive rotations

if HONDO can come off bench to make team TEAM better why couldn't it work for pierce??

The Celts have a nice 6th man tradition.  McHale was a 6th man.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2013, 06:58:55 PM »

Offline ben

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 456
  • Tommy Points: 43
Start green.  Maybe move pierce to the 2.  Maybe bring pierce off the bench.  But start green for at least one game!

How is it that Collins, Terry, Sullinger, Lee, and Bass have opportunities to start games and green has not?  Green is our 4th best scorer, might as well start him for at least one game, and explore better lineups for green.  Green and Pierce or Green and bradley at the guard sports is IDEAL.  this is not rocket science, can't believe green hasn't started yet on a struggling team with the amount of lineups we have tried so far ANYWAY!. 

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2013, 07:02:14 PM »

Offline dreamgreen

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3558
  • Tommy Points: 182
JG drives me crazy, some nights he is awesome, than other nights he is invisible. But I've had this thought for a while now, and IMO we have nothing to lose, Doc has to try something, hell if JG does better maybe some team will be dumb enough to trade for him lol.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2013, 07:03:12 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3816
  • Tommy Points: 127
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

That being said, I don't know that Green would play any better, but he really hasn't had the chance to see what we have so I'd at least like to see him with a stretch starting. Some players like Terry thrive off of coming in off the bench and can light it up immediately. Some players struggle. I believe that is what we are seeing in Green and that he will get quite a bit better with more steady PT. His numbers are barely off of Pierce's. I say look to the future since we aren't competitive and Paul is on the steady decline.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2013, 07:14:58 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
The Captain isn't sitting, period, unless he is injured.   JG has not earned a starting nod and it would be an insult to Paul.