Author Topic: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)  (Read 4624 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2013, 04:03:30 PM »

Offline KG_ended_Bias

  • Jared Sullinger
  • Posts: 743
  • Tommy Points: 51
This is also interesting and actually possible depending on where Sac is with regards to Cousins. A little concerned about Green starting at SF but that is a monster front line. That's just beating up on people... Good suggestions.

Trade 1: Pierce to Memphis, Gay to Utah, Jefferson, and Pondexter to Boston
Trade 2: Rondo and Bass to Sacramento, Cousins, Evans, Garcia and first to Boston

C's:
Evans / Terry / Barbosa
Bradley / Lee / Evans / Terry
Green / Garcia / Pondexter / Lee
Garnett / Jefferson / Sullinger / Wilcox
Cousins / Garnett/ Jefferson / Wilcox

Very good backcourt with Evans, Bradley, Lee, Terry and Barbosa
The greatest frontcourt with Garnett, Cousins, Jefferson, Sullinger and Wilcox- in all time we would have 2 BIGs and 2 GREAT REBOUNDERS on parket
The weakest area is SF with Green, Garcia, Pondexter and Lee
I don't know where he would go but Sully would have to be included somewhere in this deal. That's too much of a return to not include Sully I think. But even with Sully gone it's a team with a 6-7 year window going forward.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 04:39:41 PM »

Offline Sketch5

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1355
  • Tommy Points: 114
I don't think moving Rondo and Peirce would be the smart thing because KG would be gone the next. Unless you decide to do a couple reboot. But I just don't see KG going into battle with out either Rondo or PP.

I hate that Rondo takes games off. But it hurts the team when PP's body takes a game off. If DA has the chance and it came down to either one, I see PP gone before Rondo.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2013, 05:05:33 PM »

Offline danglertx

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 859
  • Tommy Points: 76
One thing I consistently see on this board is people overrating the worth of a non max player playing out his final year.  How much is 1/4 a season of Gortat worth?  Not as much as people on this board seem to think.  He doesn't have a huge salary so it isn't like you just let him walk and get a big salary relief.  The Suns aren't going anywhere.

This is not Gortat's final year, his 7.5 mill contract expires after next season.

My only issue with Gortat is what it would take to get him. They are not taking a package centered around bass nor should they. Go take a peak on the suns forum and they all seem to think our offers are trash and that's WITH Bradley/Sully included in the deal.

Well, first off, I assume their fans are overestimating how much Gortat is worth too.  Would they rather keep him and let him go for nothing in the off season? 

They might not like Bass and maybe they think that 6mil could be better spent elsewhere, but who are they going to get in the summer as good as Bass for 6mil?

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2013, 05:08:04 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1700
  • Tommy Points: 229
Wicklow:

  I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.

  It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.

The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.

Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.

Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?

Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.

Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.

Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.

Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.

So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2013, 05:43:08 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.

I'm sorry but would be stupid to trade pierce or Rondo right now. I would be willing to move AB if it meant getting someone like Josh Smith in return. Clee could start in a lineup of

Rondo
Lee
Pierce
Smith
KG

Would be a very good defensive team. I just think trading Pierce or Rondo would be dumb. Rondo ONLY if he brings back a lot but would be doubtful.

I'm sorry but i disagree with you. At this point trading a 35 year old pierce that decides to show up when he feels like it would be far from stupid.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2013, 05:47:43 PM »

Offline Birdman

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2422
  • Tommy Points: 139
Cant make 2 or 3 trades..Be lucky to get one done. I think either Milsap or Josh Smith may be our only options of getting an All-Star. Also C's not trading PP or Rajon

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2013, 05:51:01 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3456
  • Tommy Points: 190
Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.
[/b]

I agree with this. I thought hard about it. keep the young guns who show up every night. Keep the warrior named KG. but the rest? meh. blah. totally expendable right now.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2013, 05:54:56 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2375
  • Tommy Points: 162
Wicklow:

  I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.

  It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.

The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.

Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.

Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?

Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.

Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.

Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.

Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.

So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.

I feel exactly the same.  TP.  The legs can make the heart look real bad....

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2013, 06:57:12 PM »

Offline celticsleyte

  • Brandan Wright
  • Posts: 134
  • Tommy Points: 9
Wicklow:

  I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.

  It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.

The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.

Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.

Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?

Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.

Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.

Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.

Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.

So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.

I feel exactly the same.  TP.  The legs can make the heart look real bad....

I am about fifteen years past my prime and agree whole heartedly! Even ferocious competitors like Ewing, Akeem, MJ, McHale, Bird eventually look ordinary on the court.  It would be nice if guys walked before the big drop off. 

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2013, 07:51:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5133
  • Tommy Points: 328
Wicklow:

  I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.

  It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.

The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.

Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.

Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?

Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.

Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.

Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.

Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.

So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.

All spot on.
Quote from: BBallTim
Parker isn't going to score 30 ppg and rebuilds generally take longer than 1 year. Relax.

Every year they play this way at trade time
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2013, 08:04:40 PM »

Offline ForexPirate

  • Avery Bradley
  • Posts: 270
  • Tommy Points: 17
Have you noticed that every year they seem to play like crap and a bunch of dysfunctional players around trade time?  I think they do it purposely to keep other teams from becoming too interested in them and squash any trades before they happen.  I'm probably off base here but these players are much better than they have been showing.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 10:40:25 AM »

Offline edwardjkasche

  • Avery Bradley
  • Posts: 254
  • Tommy Points: 38
Wicklow:

  I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.

  It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.

The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.

Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.

Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?

Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.

Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.

Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.

Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.

So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.

Nice points.

But, first off, I'm not calling out KG.  I know how old Pierce and KG are.  I'm not expecting them to play like they're 27.  I know there is diminishing returns on their talent.  But, I never called out KG for heart.  Even at 37, KG brings energy and passion every single game.  His legs may not be able to keep up with his heart, but he [dang] well tries.

My issue with Pierce has nothing to do with his legs or being tired during back-to-backs.  My concern with Pierce has to do with staying in front of his man, closing out on his man, boxing out his man, taking smarter shots, and performing other simple basketball responsibilities.  Like I said, Pierce has been my fave Celtic since Reggie Lewis, but Pierce is not showing any Captain leadership by half-assing it out there.  He has his big games (usually against the Knicks), but when he decides to half-ass it, he truly half-asses it.  He has played some disgraceful games against lesser competition, and I refuse to blame that on old legs.  I blame it on a lack of focus and a withering heart. 

Finally, age doesn't cover any of the other guys not giving heart - RONDO, Bass, Terry, Green (and I give Green a slight pass due to his surgery, but we all know this is the player he is).

This team is lazy, and I refuse to blame it on age.  There are only four guys on this team over the age of 30.  We have a young team.  It's just that no one is leading and no one is playing with heart.  That's why I say it's time to end this now before it gets any worse. 

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 11:20:59 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
I don't think moving Rondo and Peirce would be the smart thing because KG would be gone the next. Unless you decide to do a couple reboot. But I just don't see KG going into battle with out either Rondo or PP.

I hate that Rondo takes games off. But it hurts the team when PP's body takes a game off. If DA has the chance and it came down to either one, I see PP gone before Rondo.

And you know this how? Has KG made this clear or are you just speaking random nonsense? I don't think KG will leave as long as we're contending for a championship and doc is here.

*Edit* I read the whole post sorry i agree with most of what you said except that bold sentence.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog