Author Topic: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)  (Read 8156 times)

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It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« on: January 21, 2013, 01:22:10 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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I've crossed over.  Completed my 180.  I was always a proponent of this team and how it was constructed.  I thought a healthy Bradley and acceptance of roles could solve many of this team's issues.  I thought the vets would have kicked it into gear by now.  I thought this team, as constructed, had a one-to-three-year shot at the championship.

But, now I don't believe any of that.  All I believe is that this team is mediocre, not because of overall talent (this is a top-4 team in the East based solely on talent), but because of effort and drive and focus and heart.  That is the reason why I don't see a 2010- or 2012-type turnaround.  Those teams had heart, but were bothered by injuries and lack of depth.  Once they got healthy, they battled deep into the post-season.  This year's team has talent and depth.  This year's team simply lacks heart.

Let's get one thing straight: This team is essentially completely healthy.  There are no true injury concerns like in seasons past.  Even without Bradley to start the season, the team should have been above .500.  That is one reason why the .500 record now is so disturbing.  We have some nicks and scratches, but nothing major.  Look at the Bulls, winning without Rose and Deng.  Look at us, with everyone on the court, losing to the lowly Hornets and Pistons.

I DON'T BLAME AINGE.  His off-season additions were spectacular.  He added youth, athleticism, 3-pt shooting, and defense.  We were all excited that Rondo could run with the new athletic youths and that we now had a number of guys who could knock down the three.  We also now had three shutdown defensive guards (Rondo, Bradley, Lee) (too bad Rondo stopped playing defense).  You can nitpick losing out on a big man here or there, but he essentially replaced Allen, Daniels, Stiemsma, Pavlovic, O'Neal, and Pietrus with Terry, Lee, Green, Wilcox, Darko, Barbosa, Collins, and Sully.  He re-signed KG, Bass, and Dooling.  Moves we all liked at the time.  It's not his fault Dooling or Darko left.  He over-paid for Green, but our backup SF isn't what's hindering this team.  And, when you're complaining about the lack of big men, remember that at the end of last season KG was our starting center and Bass was our starting PF, and that was working (their only backups were Stiemsma and a worthless O'Neal).  Ainge brought in Darko and Collins and Wilcox to backup KG.  He drafted Sully and Melo,and Sully has paid off big time right away.  Ainge did his job.

I have always been a fan of Doc's off-court coaching.  He is one of the great teachers and mentors.  I've disagreed with Xs and Os here and there, and I blame his schemes for some issues - offensive droughts and offensive rebounding - but I DO NOT BLAME DOC FOR THIS YEAR'S STRUGGLES.

I BLAME PLAYERS.

I blame vets, like Rondo and Pierce, who seem to show up only when they want to.  I blame new guys, whoever they may be, who aren't giving their all every night.

I see it as this:

Guys bringing effort every single game - KG, Sully, Bradley.

Guys bringing effort more often than not - Lee, Collins, Wilcox, Barbosa.

Guys bringing effort only when they want to (not often enough) - Rondo, Pierce, Terry, Green, Bass.

That last group is where I find my trade chips.

I'm ready for Ainge to pull the plug.  It's not about talent.  It's about heart.  It's time to rebuild this team's heart.  So what if it costs us this season.  I'd much rather be on the new road to a championship.

1) Trade Rondo.  I know he's the most divisive player amongst fans of this generation.  I've usually supported him, except where an upgrade for someone like Chris Paul was concerned.  Now?  I'm done with Rondo.  He's just too inconsistent to be a team leader.  He's also our best trade chip.

It's ridiculous to write about hypothetical Rondo trades because almost every team in the NBA would be willing to trade for Rondo.  All I'll say is that in exchange for Rondo Ainge needs to bring in a young, efficient 20ppg scorer (because of Trade #2 below).  This player does not need to be a PG.  We can always pick up a vet or run with Bradley and Lee.  Rondo should also bring at least one first round draft pick and a few other throw-in players.

Rondo = 20ppg scorer, 1st round pick, throw-in players

2) Trade Pierce.  The Truth is my favorite Celtic since Reggie Lewis, but he's doing more bad than good to this year's team.  Hes playing inefficient offense and lazy defense.  He only gets up for the games against the Knicks.  Trading him to a contender now could bring back key players and draft picks.  He can always sign a 1-day contract upon retirement and retire as a Celtic, and of course his # will go in the rafters, but I no longer believe we have to keep him here for the sake of loyalty.

Pierce = veteran low-post big man, draft pick or two

3) Include Bass, Green, or Terry in those trades to make salaries match.  Bass makes $6, Green makes $8.5, Terry makes $5.  That gives Ainge flexibility. 

4) Build new team around Bradley, Sully, and guys brought in with trades.  Do not trade Bradley or Sully.  Keep Melo if possible.  Keep Lee. 

5) KG has two years left on his contract.  If he plays it out, great.  If he retires, immediately sign him as your Defensive Assistant Coach.  And, hang his # up in the rafters.  The man gave everything he had to this team, at an advanced age.  He earned it.

So, I propose trading Rondo and Pierce, and any of Bass, Green, and Terry.

I propose building the new team around Bradley, Sully, Lee, Melo, and the talent that comes back in the trades.  I propose locking up KG as a Celtic-for-life.

I know I'm not throwing out specific players in the Rondo and Pierce trades, but it could be literally anyone.  Almost any team in the league would want Rondo, and any championship contender would want Pierce.  So, let's start the discussion.

Your thoughts?

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 01:44:25 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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I agree with 99% of what you said above. The only thing I really disagree with is..

Jeff Green, i think he is starting to come around lets not forget he is a year removed from have major surgery. Granted I would like for him to show more fire on the court but I just don't think thats his personality. Much the same way Pitinio traded away Joe Johnson for not seeming aggressive enough. As stupid as in may sound I kind of want to see Paul miss a couple games so that Green gets a crack at starting and see how he handles it.
I still think he can be our starting SF post PP.

I agree that it might come down to trading RR and PP but this comes with a major problem. With Rondo gone will the Celtics be able to attract and one if Free Agency ?? At least right now we no the likes of Josh Smith and Rudy Gay would love to play with Rondo.

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Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 01:47:03 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I second both of your comments.  Green has perhaps earned another year due to his slow but steady improvement.  If we can get something decent and young for PP, we need to do it!!  Rondo should bring a boatload of talent for the future and hopefully guys that don't play matador defense as he does.

Smitty77

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 01:51:43 PM »

Offline vgulab

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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 01:52:43 PM »

Offline perks-a-beast

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I was skeptical coming into this thread but i have to agree with alot of the points you made.

Two things i disagree with...

1. Doc needs more blame. Even Doc will admit he needs to do a better job with this team. He's not doing a good job of putting guys in positions to succeed. 

2. It's not/ never will be time to trade Paul Pierce. He's more than earned the right to retire a Celtic. He's 35 and his body has taken a beating these past few years, of course he's going to have off nights but i can guarentee you PP can still bring it in the playoffs.

I agree that if we can get some good value (Ecspecially a big like Cousins) for Rondo then it's time for him to go. I'd rather build around younger guys like Sully and Bradley who bring it every night.

Pierce, KG, Bradley and Sully are keepers. Everyone else is fair game in my mind.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 01:52:52 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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Quote
will the Celtics be able to attract and one if Free Agency ?

I understand, but the Celtics have never been a popular free agent destination.

Ainge knows free agents don't flock to Boston, so he has to do his dirty work via trades, like when he brought Allen and KG here.

p.s. Over-paying for Josh Smith or Rudy Gay in free agency is not my answer to this team's troubles.  Both Smith and Gay are inconsistent and inefficient and have never proven to be good leaders.  Teaming them with Rondo via free agency doesn't get us anywhere, in my opinion.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 01:53:36 PM »

Offline MBunge

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I DO NOT BLAME DOC FOR THIS YEAR'S STRUGGLES.

There is one thing you absolutely have to blame Doc for.  He has done an unbelievably bad job of incorporating Terry into the offense while simultaneously relying on Terry too much despite his poor play.  There are other points you can argue about and it doesn't excuse Terry's performance, but Doc's handling of him is one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen.

Mike

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 01:57:21 PM »

Offline moiso

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Whenever Green's most recent game is a good one, people point to his coming around and improvement.  He always follows up good performances with games in which he masters the art of invisibility.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 02:04:50 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....

I like your line of thinking.  It's realistic.

I wouldn't ever want Cousins, but I like the other three ideas.  I'd tweak them a bit.

Rondo + Terry for Horford + Teague + 1st round

With Rondo, the Hawks wouldn't need Teague.  Terry replaces Lou Williams (out for the year).  I like Teague's game.  Horford is the key though.  Draft pick may not work if these four players are included.

Rondo + Bass + Terry for Jefferson + Favors + Burks

Salaries match.  We'd get two front court guys and a young PG.  They get a new PG, backup SG, and a big to replace Favors.

Rondo for Prince + Monroe + Knight

They get a PG to help set their roster.  We get a big like Monroe and a young PG.  We also get Prince, who could allow us to then trade Pierce or Green in another trade.  The salaries are toughest to match with Detroit.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 02:08:23 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

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To everyone who disagrees with me saying I don't blame Doc for this year's struggles:

Do you think this team would be above .500 with a different coach???

Name an available coach who you would want to replace Doc right now.

I agree that Doc has flaws - his mishandling of Terry is one I've mentioned before on this site - but he has busted his ass to get these guys to buy into their roles and play harder on the court.  They're not listening and playing hard.

I don't think changing coaches improves this team.

I'm more ready to trade players than change coaches.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 02:12:10 PM »

Offline DavorCroatiaFan

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Trade 1: Pierce to Memphis, Gay to Utah, Jefferson, and Pondexter to Boston
Trade 2: Rondo and Bass to Sacramento, Cousins, Evans, Garcia and first to Boston

C's:
Evans / Terry / Barbosa
Bradley / Lee / Evans / Terry
Green / Garcia / Pondexter / Lee
Garnett / Jefferson / Sullinger / Wilcox
Cousins / Garnett/ Jefferson / Wilcox

Very good backcourt with Evans, Bradley, Lee, Terry and Barbosa
The greatest frontcourt with Garnett, Cousins, Jefferson, Sullinger and Wilcox- in all time we would have 2 BIGs and 2 GREAT REBOUNDERS on parket
The weakest area is SF with Green, Garcia, Pondexter and Lee

No1 Celtics fan in Croatia

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 02:17:15 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....

I like your line of thinking.  It's realistic.

I wouldn't ever want Cousins, but I like the other three ideas.  I'd tweak them a bit.

Rondo + Terry for Horford + Teague + 1st round

With Rondo, the Hawks wouldn't need Teague.  Terry replaces Lou Williams (out for the year).  I like Teague's game.  Horford is the key though.  Draft pick may not work if these four players are included.

Rondo + Bass + Terry for Jefferson + Favors + Burks

Salaries match.  We'd get two front court guys and a young PG.  They get a new PG, backup SG, and a big to replace Favors.

Rondo for Prince + Monroe + Knight

They get a PG to help set their roster.  We get a big like Monroe and a young PG.  We also get Prince, who could allow us to then trade Pierce or Green in another trade.  The salaries are toughest to match with Detroit.
You are overrating Rondo's value.
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Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 02:18:31 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Name an available coach who you would want to replace Doc right now.

Jeff Van Gundy.  Heck, I think Stan Van Gundy or even Scott Skiles would change things up.  You can say a lot of things about Skiles but his teams never fail to compete the way Boston has the past few years.

Mike

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 02:21:16 PM »

Offline WeMadeIt17

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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.

Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick

For

Gortat and Dudley

We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.

Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?

This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.

Re: It is time. (Wicklow's way to turn around the C's)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 02:24:42 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.

Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick

For

Gortat and Dudley

We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.

Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?

This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.
I think that is the type of package we will send out but I doubt we are able to get that much for those players.
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