Author Topic: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee  (Read 5491 times)

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Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 01:52:50 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player. 

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2013, 02:00:52 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.



Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2013, 03:29:37 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Bradley when healthy is better.




But I would be fine with either of them starting (and the other one traded) if the Celtics could get that impact big man to go next to KG.


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Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 03:50:30 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Bradley when healthy is better.




But I would be fine with either of them starting (and the other one traded) if the Celtics could get that impact big man to go next to KG.
"WHEN HEALTHY" are the key words

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 03:57:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.

  Just curious, but what's the point in discussing what conclusions people who aren't familiar with Bradley would come to by looking at his stats? People might also look at how weak on paper KG is compared to players like Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson and the like, but what would that prove?

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 05:09:35 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.



Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started

FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:

Quote
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level


(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)

Quote
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.

Quote
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.

Quote
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.

Quote
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.

AKA...not that valuable.

Quote
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.

Quote
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.

As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.

Quote
He's no Shumpert

... About what I expected to see.  Interesting. 

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 05:26:51 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers or people associated with the league...even then I'm sure they all would admit he's better then Lee

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 05:29:15 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry



I disagree with that.



Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet.  It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)


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Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 05:43:17 PM »

Online hpantazo

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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry



I disagree with that.



Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet.  It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)

yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.

A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.

Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 05:53:54 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry



I disagree with that.



Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet.  It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)

yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.

A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.

Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.

Right.  Teams aren't lining up to trade their allstar big men for Iman Shumpert either.

I think Knicks fans are just as high on Shumpert as we are on Bradley.

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »

Offline BballTim

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.



Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started

FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:

Quote
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level


(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)

Quote
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.

Quote
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.

Quote
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.

Quote
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.

AKA...not that valuable.

Quote
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.

Quote
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.

As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.

Quote
He's no Shumpert

... About what I expected to see.  Interesting.

  I don't spend a ton of time on realgm but I've never been overly impressed with the posters. But in any case, most of those posts are people claiming that Bradley won't net you Cousins in a trade. Are you saying that Lee would get you Cousins? If not, those posts don't say anything about whether Bradley's better or worse than Lee.

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 06:34:56 PM »

Online hpantazo

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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry



I disagree with that.



Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet.  It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)

yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.

A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.

Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.

Right.  Teams aren't lining up to trade their allstar big men for Iman Shumpert either.

I think Knicks fans are just as high on Shumpert as we are on Bradley.

yes, Shumpert doesn't get you Cousins either, he also has limitations and injury history, and is undersized, although he's taller than Bradley

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2013, 06:59:36 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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Lee is a better offensive player.  Bradley is a better defensive player.

So the question becomes, is Lee's offense that much better than Bradley's, and is Bradley's defense that much better than Lee's.

Both are great defenders.  While I think Bradley is better, I'd have no problem if Doc decided to have Lee guard a Kobe or Wade with the game on the line.

On the other hand, Lee's offense is superior to Bradley's.  Lee is a legit three point threat that teams will not want to leave open (despite his poor shooting this year).  Bradley is great at cutting to the basket, and his jumper looks better, but I don't think teams are as worried about him on offense as they would with Lee.

If we judged the two on these comparisons, I'd say Lee's better AS A PLAYER.  In terms of value to the team, though, I think Bradley is more important.

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2013, 10:34:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Lee is a better offensive player.  Bradley is a better defensive player.

So the question becomes, is Lee's offense that much better than Bradley's, and is Bradley's defense that much better than Lee's.

Both are great defenders.  While I think Bradley is better, I'd have no problem if Doc decided to have Lee guard a Kobe or Wade with the game on the line.

On the other hand, Lee's offense is superior to Bradley's.  Lee is a legit three point threat that teams will not want to leave open (despite his poor shooting this year).  Bradley is great at cutting to the basket, and his jumper looks better, but I don't think teams are as worried about him on offense as they would with Lee.

If we judged the two on these comparisons, I'd say Lee's better AS A PLAYER.  In terms of value to the team, though, I think Bradley is more important.

  It's true that Lee has more of a body of work than Bradley but they're fairly comparable offensive players. Look at them from last year: http://bkref.com/tiny/JyH38

  Not a down year or anything for Lee, but the numbers (points per 36, PER, TS%) are fairly even. Lee might be better on offense right now, whether he'll be playing better offense than Bradley in a month or two (assuming health for both players) is no better than a coin toss.

Re: Avery Bradley vs Courtney Lee
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2013, 11:54:41 PM »

Offline action781

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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.

Fair enough.  I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston. 

I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better.  Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards.  His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.



Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started

FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:

Quote
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level


(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)

Quote
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.

Quote
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.

Quote
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.

Quote
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.

AKA...not that valuable.

Quote
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.

Quote
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.

As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.

Quote
He's no Shumpert

... About what I expected to see.  Interesting.

  I don't spend a ton of time on realgm but I've never been overly impressed with the posters. But in any case, most of those posts are people claiming that Bradley won't net you Cousins in a trade. Are you saying that Lee would get you Cousins? If not, those posts don't say anything about whether Bradley's better or worse than Lee.

I don't think he was "saying" anything, I think he was just providing outside perspective to how other fans view Bradley for our information.  I found it very interesting actually.  Surprising at first, but then very not surprising when I stepped back and thought about it.   That's actually what made it very interesting to me.
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