Author Topic: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley  (Read 9922 times)

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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2013, 01:23:46 PM »

Offline Chris

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Being in the low 40s for fg% doesn't sound great, unless you compare it to the league average which is in the high 30s. Above average = fairly solid.
Well I guess Rondo has had a "solid midrange game" for most of his career then...

He has actually.  His shooting percentages have always been decent from midrange.  The problem is, in the past, he would only take those shots when he had no other option, and was wide open, so it just wasn't as effective.  Now, he is better, because not only is he shooting well, but he is confident enough in his shooting take those shots to keep the defense honest.
I'm confused, he was taking shots wide open, supposedly had decent midrange game, but wasn't as effective?

I'm more inclined to believe that the league, on average, doesn't have a decent midrange game :P

Yes.  He was still hitting a similar percentage of the shots he took, but instead of taking maybe 5 of 10 of the open shots he had, which he probably does now, he was taking MAYBE 1 of 10.  So, defenses were more easily able to play off him, go under picks, sit in the passing lanes, etc.  And that made him less effective as a player. 

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2013, 01:26:43 PM »

Offline BballTim

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First, the facts are that he shoots at a good percentage from 3pt range and from the floor in general.  That includes all of his shots, not just corner threes and backdoor layups.
Right, and close to 57% of his shots last season were at the rim or from the three. Your point?

  57% is close to average for a shooting guard. He took about 2.5 times as many longish jumpers as 3s, if we can say he's a decent 3 point shooter we should be able to say the same about his mid-range jumpers.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2013, 01:30:51 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that
That whole discussion started from the statement that "Bradley is limited offensively". It's not controversial, it's factual. He has shown no consistent offensive game other than the short three pointer and cutting without the ball. That's limited.

I'm not saying that won't be a successful without ever developing more tools, but I don't see how something so self-evident can be controversial. Unless of course you think Bradley is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in which case discussion is pretty much pointless.

So he's an exceptional cutter, very good on the break and converting at the basket, and is a good corner 3 point shot.

This is from the guy who a year ago was hitting shots off the side of the backboard.

What does limited mean exactly? Id be willing to argue that there are a ton of guys on our team that are limited offensively.

To me limited basically implies being a liability. Every offensive player in the game is "limited" so what else would it mean?
Limited implies exactly what it says. And yes, there are other guys on our roster that are limited. I don't understand  why people get bent out of shape about this -- are we all supposed to grovel about Bradley being the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

Having Bradley on the floor clearly limits what you can do offensively -- you can't run 1-2 high picks, can't run him off of screens, can't give him the ball and move out of the way. These things alter the playbook considerably.

Does Bradley bring other stuff to the table? Sure he does. But let's call a spade a spade here.

Its just a very vague and bizarre comment.

You might as well preface every statement about a player mentioning how they are limited offensively.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Celtics offense is worse with AB on the floor? I actually thought last year it was a lot better with him on the floor.

Yes hes limited in thethe sense that he isn't polished in every facet of the offensive game.

For someone that defends of all people Bass ,one of the most limited offensive players on our team is just bizarre.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2013, 01:38:52 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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First, the facts are that he shoots at a good percentage from 3pt range and from the floor in general.  That includes all of his shots, not just corner threes and backdoor layups.
Right, and close to 57% of his shots last season were at the rim or from the three. Your point?

  57% is close to average for a shooting guard. He took about 2.5 times as many longish jumpers as 3s, if we can say he's a decent 3 point shooter we should be able to say the same about his mid-range jumpers.
Um, no? Unlike long jumpers, his eFG% on three pointers last year is considerably higher than the league average for SGs playing at least 20 minutes per game.

So yeah, good (corner) three point shooter, but unremarkable midrange jump shooter.
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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2013, 01:46:22 PM »

Offline BballTim

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First, the facts are that he shoots at a good percentage from 3pt range and from the floor in general.  That includes all of his shots, not just corner threes and backdoor layups.
Right, and close to 57% of his shots last season were at the rim or from the three. Your point?

  57% is close to average for a shooting guard. He took about 2.5 times as many longish jumpers as 3s, if we can say he's a decent 3 point shooter we should be able to say the same about his mid-range jumpers.
Um, no? Unlike long jumpers, his eFG% on three pointers last year is considerably higher than the league average for SGs playing at least 20 minutes per game.

So yeah, good (corner) three point shooter, but unremarkable midrange jump shooter.

  Sorry, I misspoke. What I meant was that he took enough 2 point jumpers to come to a conclusion about whether he can hit them or not.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2013, 01:47:08 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Limited implies exactly what it says. And yes, there are other guys on our roster that are limited. I don't understand  why people get bent out of shape about this -- are we all supposed to grovel about Bradley being the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

Having Bradley on the floor clearly limits what you can do offensively -- you can't run 1-2 high picks, can't run him off of screens, can't give him the ball and move out of the way. These things alter the playbook considerably.

Does Bradley bring other stuff to the table? Sure he does. But let's call a spade a spade here.

Its just a very vague and bizarre comment.

You might as well preface every statement about a player mentioning how they are limited offensively.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Celtics offense is worse with AB on the floor? I actually thought last year it was a lot better with him on the floor.

Yes hes limited in the sense that he isn't polished in every facet of the offensive game.

For someone that defends of all people Bass ,one of the most limited offensive players on our team is just bizarre.
It's only bizarre if you for some reason think that being limited offensively is the end of the world.

Bradley is limited. There are sets that you can run with Terry (or Ray Allen) that you'll never run with Bradley. There is barely anything that you can run with Bradley which you can't run with Terry or Lee.

I'd be the first to agree that Bass is limited offensively (of course, there are probably less sets we cannot run because of Bass than because of Bradley, but that's a different story altogether). As a matter of fact though, if he was playing more within his limitations, he'd probably be as useful this season as he was last season.



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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2013, 02:11:21 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Limited implies exactly what it says. And yes, there are other guys on our roster that are limited. I don't understand  why people get bent out of shape about this -- are we all supposed to grovel about Bradley being the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

Having Bradley on the floor clearly limits what you can do offensively -- you can't run 1-2 high picks, can't run him off of screens, can't give him the ball and move out of the way. These things alter the playbook considerably.

Does Bradley bring other stuff to the table? Sure he does. But let's call a spade a spade here.

Its just a very vague and bizarre comment.

You might as well preface every statement about a player mentioning how they are limited offensively.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Celtics offense is worse with AB on the floor? I actually thought last year it was a lot better with him on the floor.

Yes hes limited in the sense that he isn't polished in every facet of the offensive game.

For someone that defends of all people Bass ,one of the most limited offensive players on our team is just bizarre.
It's only bizarre if you for some reason think that being limited offensively is the end of the world.

Bradley is limited. There are sets that you can run with Terry (or Ray Allen) that you'll never run with Bradley. There is barely anything that you can run with Bradley which you can't run with Terry or Lee.

I'd be the first to agree that Bass is limited offensively (of course, there are probably less sets we cannot run because of Bass than because of Bradley, but that's a different story altogether). As a matter of fact though, if he was playing more within his limitations, he'd probably be as useful this season as he was last season.

Okay as long as we agree that everyone in the league is limited offensively than its not bizarre.

It is bizarre that when a more limited offensive player such as AB was playing that the Celtics offense was better than with Terry or Ray.


Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2013, 02:20:08 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Limited implies exactly what it says. And yes, there are other guys on our roster that are limited. I don't understand  why people get bent out of shape about this -- are we all supposed to grovel about Bradley being the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

Having Bradley on the floor clearly limits what you can do offensively -- you can't run 1-2 high picks, can't run him off of screens, can't give him the ball and move out of the way. These things alter the playbook considerably.

Does Bradley bring other stuff to the table? Sure he does. But let's call a spade a spade here.

Its just a very vague and bizarre comment.

You might as well preface every statement about a player mentioning how they are limited offensively.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Celtics offense is worse with AB on the floor? I actually thought last year it was a lot better with him on the floor.

Yes hes limited in the sense that he isn't polished in every facet of the offensive game.

For someone that defends of all people Bass ,one of the most limited offensive players on our team is just bizarre.
It's only bizarre if you for some reason think that being limited offensively is the end of the world.

Bradley is limited. There are sets that you can run with Terry (or Ray Allen) that you'll never run with Bradley. There is barely anything that you can run with Bradley which you can't run with Terry or Lee.

I'd be the first to agree that Bass is limited offensively (of course, there are probably less sets we cannot run because of Bass than because of Bradley, but that's a different story altogether). As a matter of fact though, if he was playing more within his limitations, he'd probably be as useful this season as he was last season.

Okay as long as we agree that everyone in the league is limited offensively than its not bizarre.

It is bizarre that when a more limited offensive player such as AB was playing that the Celtics offense was better than with Terry or Ray.

It isn't really bizarre to me.

What Bradley does well, cut off ball and run the floor on the break, is a better compliment to what everyone else does.

We have enough jump shooters.


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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2013, 06:26:57 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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Bradley is the driving force, but our turnaround has been a team effort.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2013, 08:12:09 PM »

Online LooseCannon

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A few percentage points matters a lot. Guys like Kobe Bryant/Paul Pierce/Korver/etc. will shoot 43-45% on those shots all the time.

In the past 4 seasons, from 10-23 feet:
Paul Pierce: 44.4%, 39.6%, 45.6%, 36.6%
Kobe Bryant: 43.0% 45.4%, 42.9%, 41.0%
Kyle Korver: 47.7%, 47.8%, 46.3%, 40.1%
Dwyane Wade: 43.3%, 35.8%, 37.3%, 38.1%
Ray Allen: 48.6%, 48.5%, 47.9%, 38.7%
Andre Iguodala: 36.1%, 37.8%, 36.3%, 35.0%
Monta Ellis: 35.8%, 38.2%, 37.6%, 40.3%
Eric Gordon: 41.6%, 34.5% 39.6% 41.9%
Chris Paul: 45.3% 48.5% 45.0% 47.7%
Russell Westbrook: 36.5%, 35.9%, 36.8%, 42.1%
Deron Williams: 47.5%, 41.8%, 42.5%, 40.2%
Rudy Gay: 41.3%, 42.2%, 42.4%, 39.2%
Joe Johnson: 39.2%, 40.9%, 37.6%, 41.0%


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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2013, 04:56:05 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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So I am surprised that this thread did not get fired up again after last night's game.  Avery started and we jumped out to a lead looking like another win to add to Avery's streak.

Avery gets hurt, sits out the rest of the game, we lose our lead and lose the game.

It doesn't seem to make any sense but it appears we can only win games when Avery plays and plays the full game.

Unbelievable!

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2013, 05:22:28 PM »

Offline j804

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So I am surprised that this thread did not get fired up again after last night's game.  Avery started and we jumped out to a lead looking like another win to add to Avery's streak.

Avery gets hurt, sits out the rest of the game, we lose our lead and lose the game.

It doesn't seem to make any sense but it appears we can only win games when Avery plays and plays the full game.

Unbelievable!
He also came out the game and nailed a jumper off a pin down, but he we can't run those types of plays for him when he's in the game right?!


Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2013, 06:59:31 AM »

Offline celtics2

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So I am surprised that this thread did not get fired up again after last night's game.  Avery started and we jumped out to a lead looking like another win to add to Avery's streak.

Avery gets hurt, sits out the rest of the game, we lose our lead and lose the game.

It doesn't seem to make any sense but it appears we can only win games when Avery plays and plays the full game.

Unbelievable!

Jack said, "you can't handle the truth"

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2013, 07:59:04 AM »

Online hpantazo

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A few percentage points matters a lot. Guys like Kobe Bryant/Paul Pierce/Korver/etc. will shoot 43-45% on those shots all the time.

In the past 4 seasons, from 10-23 feet:
Paul Pierce: 44.4%, 39.6%, 45.6%, 36.6%
Kobe Bryant: 43.0% 45.4%, 42.9%, 41.0%
Kyle Korver: 47.7%, 47.8%, 46.3%, 40.1%
Dwyane Wade: 43.3%, 35.8%, 37.3%, 38.1%
Ray Allen: 48.6%, 48.5%, 47.9%, 38.7%
Andre Iguodala: 36.1%, 37.8%, 36.3%, 35.0%
Monta Ellis: 35.8%, 38.2%, 37.6%, 40.3%
Eric Gordon: 41.6%, 34.5% 39.6% 41.9%
Chris Paul: 45.3% 48.5% 45.0% 47.7%
Russell Westbrook: 36.5%, 35.9%, 36.8%, 42.1%
Deron Williams: 47.5%, 41.8%, 42.5%, 40.2%
Rudy Gay: 41.3%, 42.2%, 42.4%, 39.2%
Joe Johnson: 39.2%, 40.9%, 37.6%, 41.0%

Wow, Pierce has taken almost a 10 percent drop this year! Come on captain!

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #119 on: January 18, 2013, 03:39:04 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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So I am surprised that this thread did not get fired up again after last night's game.  Avery started and we jumped out to a lead looking like another win to add to Avery's streak.

Avery gets hurt, sits out the rest of the game, we lose our lead and lose the game.

It doesn't seem to make any sense but it appears we can only win games when Avery plays and plays the full game.

Unbelievable!
Unbelievable -- because it isn't exactly true.

I don't know when Bradley returned, but he never "sat out the rest of the game" -- he subbed in in fourth, and played until we pulled the starters.

In any case, after the first quarter out ability to hold the lead was pretty loosely related to whether Bradley was or wasn't on the court.

The team maintained the lead for most of the second quarter without Bradley, then fell behind when he returned, came back and fell back again with him on the court.

In the third quarter, we were falling behind at exactly the same rate, whether or not he was on the court.

I am also wondering what the story is in the injury altogether, since what Doc said yesterday in his WEEI appearance was that "Avery for some reason got tired", and it wasn't until today that we heard he supposedly had a rib injury.

What gives?
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