Author Topic: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley  (Read 9984 times)

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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2013, 09:18:44 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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can someone tell me why people keep posting that bradley is a "weak offensive player"

Everything Bradley has shown me in the nba(and college so far) is that he can shoot, and he can finish around the rim....he averaged double digits last year starting.

as he is getting his timing back, he's scoring in double digits again...averaging 8.7ppg so far on the season

He can't create his own and isnt the greatest ballhandler? yes he can shoot and cut to the basket and finish. Im a huge fan and agree he deserves a ton of the credit since his return but it doesnt mean hes some all world offensive player

This is and has been quite a few players on our team though.

Not saying he doesn't have areas to improve on or what you say isn't fair, but yeah, he has serious strengths as well.  The cutting is big to me, you don't see many guards cut like that these days.

We're not talking about other players though? I tend to agree he's plenty effective on that end especially the way he fits with rondo, but when you cant really create your own shot youre not a great offensive player

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2013, 09:18:56 AM »

Online Fafnir

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

He's had some phenomenal offensive games, but for his career he's averaging 12.7 points per 36 minutes.  He had some great moments last year -- including a fantastic six game streak of 15+ point games -- but he needs to show scoring like that on a consistent basis before he can be described as a "great" or even "good" offensive player.

My expectation is that he'll eventually settle in somewhere in the low double-digits per game.  I'll gladly take that if he continues to play excellent defense.
Yup.

He just needs to do what Kawhi Leonard does offensively and he's golden, that's what he did for us last year during our winning streak.

Corner 3s, transition layups, occasional jump shots, and cuts to the rim.

So far his shot selection has been good, his jumper has just been rusty.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2013, 09:25:51 AM »

Offline BballTim

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From 82games:

      Stat                             ON Court  OFF Court   Net
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.          93.2     103.6    -10.3
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.         89.6     105.8    -16.2
Net Points per 100 Possessions   +3.7     -2.2      +5.9

A big difference both defensively (for the positive) and offensive (for the negative).  Net Net though, he is still making a positive contribution but statically it is small.

What I see on the court is a good player but not so good he should make this difference.  His effort is contagious but it is not like they weren't playing good defense before.


 Yes, while Bradley has been something of a defensive spark our defense was clearly showing improvement before he came back. In late November the Celts were 23rd in defense, in late December we were 11th. While the team was playing good defense in fits and starts we went through 3-4 game stretches where our defense was as good or better than it's been recently.

 In terms of his on/off numbers, that includes all of the games when we were playing bad defense (and better offense). For instance, our defense with Bradley on the bench the last 7 games is (ballpark) 97, so his defense would be closer to -8 than -16.

  Overall, according to nba.com, Bradley is a +18 over the last 7 games and he's playing almost 24 minutes a game. Over those 7 games we're a combined +54, so in the 24 minutes a game Avery plays we're a combined +18, in the 24 minutes he's on the bench we're a combined +16. So if you want to attribute our recent play to Avery and not to the team (as a whole) playing better you need to claim that the "Bradley effect" extends to how the team plays when he's on the bench.

  And, for the record, I'm a AB supporter, I've always claimed that the Celts with Bradley would have beaten the Heat with Bosh, and I think he's going to be a pretty good offensive player.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2013, 09:31:03 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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can someone tell me why people keep posting that bradley is a "weak offensive player"

Everything Bradley has shown me in the nba(and college so far) is that he can shoot, and he can finish around the rim....he averaged double digits last year starting.

as he is getting his timing back, he's scoring in double digits again...averaging 8.7ppg so far on the season

He can't create his own and isnt the greatest ballhandler? yes he can shoot and cut to the basket and finish. Im a huge fan and agree he deserves a ton of the credit since his return but it doesnt mean hes some all world offensive player

This is and has been quite a few players on our team though.

Not saying he doesn't have areas to improve on or what you say isn't fair, but yeah, he has serious strengths as well.  The cutting is big to me, you don't see many guards cut like that these days.

We're not talking about other players though? I tend to agree he's plenty effective on that end especially the way he fits with rondo, but when you cant really create your own shot youre not a great offensive player

And I wouldn't say he was great, never did.

He's good though.  And he should only improve.  He has shown he can create his own shot he just doesn't do it consistently.


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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2013, 09:41:57 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Regarding Bradley's offense, he currently ranks 189th in the NBA among guys playing 150+ minutes in terms of points per 36 minutes.  That's very close to the 50th percentile.



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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2013, 09:43:36 AM »

Offline BballTim

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can someone tell me why people keep posting that bradley is a "weak offensive player"

Everything Bradley has shown me in the nba(and college so far) is that he can shoot, and he can finish around the rim....he averaged double digits last year starting.

as he is getting his timing back, he's scoring in double digits again...averaging 8.7ppg so far on the season

He can't create his own and isnt the greatest ballhandler? yes he can shoot and cut to the basket and finish. Im a huge fan and agree he deserves a ton of the credit since his return but it doesnt mean hes some all world offensive player

  I don't think it's true that he can't create his own shot, more than he does it rarely because he has a smallish role in the offense.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2013, 09:55:17 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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Regarding Bradley's offense, he currently ranks 189th in the NBA among guys playing 150+ minutes in terms of points per 36 minutes.  That's very close to the 50th percentile.

He's not being asked to score that much so I don't find that very relevant to saying how he's really performing offensively.  We already don't have enough points to go around really in our guard and forward rotation.

More interested in the types of shots he's getting or creating and his efficiency.


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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2013, 10:13:39 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2013, 10:26:06 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Regarding Bradley's offense, he currently ranks 189th in the NBA among guys playing 150+ minutes in terms of points per 36 minutes.  That's very close to the 50th percentile.

I think he's improved offensively quite a bit in a couple years so seeing quick improvement like that leads people to believe that there's "more where that came from" and that his flashes would be more consistent if he played a bigger role in the offense and got more shots.

His per 36 minutes point are still ahead of Sully, Terry and Rondo who are all considered to be at least pretty good offense players.

If you think that after 3 games that Bradley will plateau or decline id just disagree and guess that that ranking will steadily rise as the year goes on and as his career goes on.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2013, 10:38:54 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Let's focus this thread on the impact Avery is having, rather than on the self-congratulatory back-patting and the I-told-you-sos.

I think Danny Ainge got it right regarding Bradley's impact:

Quote
I'll tell you, the biggest factor I think is that that guy plays so hard, he exposes everybody else on the court if they're not playing defense, just by his play. How can you not see that? How can you not see this guy working so hard, fighting over every screen, defending every dribble and every pass? And if somebody else isn't doing that, they're exposed, and I think that stands out, too, and I think that elevates the play of his teammates."

I guess the issue is whether the team can keep that spark up for the rest of the regular season + playoffs.  In the short term, I absolutely agree that Bradley has been the biggest reason for our recent streak, and it's remarkable that an undersized shooting guard who has been rusty offensively can have such a huge impact.

I think we overlook that one guy, even a non-superstar who is exceptional at one thing (on-ball defense), can have a major impact on the team overall.


Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2013, 10:40:45 AM »

Offline mctyson

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can someone tell me why people keep posting that bradley is a "weak offensive player"

Everything Bradley has shown me in the nba(and college so far) is that he can shoot, and he can finish around the rim....he averaged double digits last year starting.

as he is getting his timing back, he's scoring in double digits again...averaging 8.7ppg so far on the season

He can't create his own and isnt the greatest ballhandler? yes he can shoot and cut to the basket and finish. Im a huge fan and agree he deserves a ton of the credit since his return but it doesnt mean hes some all world offensive player

  I don't think it's true that he can't create his own shot, more than he does it rarely because he has a smallish role in the offense.

More importantly, we don't need him to create his own shot.  Ray Allen couldn't create his own shot.  We have one of the best distributing PGs of the past 2 decades on our roster for creating shots.  We just need guys who can make shots.

Avery can make shots.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2013, 10:46:13 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that
That whole discussion started from the statement that "Bradley is limited offensively". It's not controversial, it's factual. He has shown no consistent offensive game other than the short three pointer and cutting without the ball. That's limited.

I'm not saying that won't be a successful without ever developing more tools, but I don't see how something so self-evident can be controversial. Unless of course you think Bradley is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in which case discussion is pretty much pointless.
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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2013, 11:51:02 AM »

Offline BballTim

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that
That whole discussion started from the statement that "Bradley is limited offensively". It's not controversial, it's factual. He has shown no consistent offensive game other than the short three pointer and cutting without the ball. That's limited.

I'm not saying that won't be a successful without ever developing more tools, but I don't see how something so self-evident can be controversial. Unless of course you think Bradley is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in which case discussion is pretty much pointless.

  It's not really true that he's only shown the ability to hit corner threes and cut without the ball, he's shown himself to have a fairly solid mid-range jumper.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2013, 12:03:58 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that
That whole discussion started from the statement that "Bradley is limited offensively". It's not controversial, it's factual. He has shown no consistent offensive game other than the short three pointer and cutting without the ball. That's limited.

I'm not saying that won't be a successful without ever developing more tools, but I don't see how something so self-evident can be controversial. Unless of course you think Bradley is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in which case discussion is pretty much pointless.

  It's not really true that he's only shown the ability to hit corner threes and cut without the ball, he's shown himself to have a fairly solid mid-range jumper.
Oh, but it is. He's shooting in the low .400s over the last two seasons from 16-23 feet, and has no game whatosever inside 15 feet unless it's at the rim.

Some midrange game? Sure. Fairly solid? I wouldn't say so.
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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2013, 12:08:14 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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What's controversial about saying Avery isn't a great offensive player?

Might be because they're implying that he's not just not great but inept.

Yeah what's controversial is saying something like all he can do is cut to the basket and that anyone can do that
That whole discussion started from the statement that "Bradley is limited offensively". It's not controversial, it's factual. He has shown no consistent offensive game other than the short three pointer and cutting without the ball. That's limited.

I'm not saying that won't be a successful without ever developing more tools, but I don't see how something so self-evident can be controversial. Unless of course you think Bradley is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in which case discussion is pretty much pointless.

  It's not really true that he's only shown the ability to hit corner threes and cut without the ball, he's shown himself to have a fairly solid mid-range jumper.

Even still, that's relatvely "limited" in terms of overall ways to score.

It's irrelevant though.  There's no reason Bradley can't be successful with just those tools.  Hitting 3's, long 2's, getting layups off cuts and/or the fastbreak is enough variety to consistently score 10-15 ppg.

Bradley isn't being counted on, nor will he likely ever be, to be a primary scorer.  He won't need to playing next to Rondo and coupled with his elite defense.

Is he a great or elite offensive player?  No.  He is a completely compitent and capable offensive player though.  15 PPG is not at all out the question for him.  He does also still have room to improve at the young age of 22.

 

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