Author Topic: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley  (Read 9646 times)

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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2013, 11:57:14 AM »

Offline eja117

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I tell you one other thing Bradley did. He exposed Ray Allen and single handedly ended the legend of Ray. Ray met Avery and immediately went from first ballot HOFer to third ballot. Went from one of the best ever to one of the guys who was very good.  And he better hope Miami wins another ring this year because if they don't he goes from a reason you win rings to a reason you lose them.

I think this is a pretty absurd claim. It just sounds like you are being childishly bitter over Ray leaving. Nothing about Avery Bradley has tarnished Ray's career, or his status as a first ballot Hall of Famer. And Ray was far from being the reason we didn't win rings; even when Bradley replaced him as a starter, he was one of our 5 best players. His defensive woes were overstated (his defensive efficiency metrics were all above average for a shooting guard, actually), and his offense was (and remains) brilliant.

There are a lot of reasons why Ray lost his starting job here and left the team. And I can understand that you don't root for him anymore. But to actually straight-faced claim that this somehow damages his legacy is beyond hyperbolic. Ray Allen will still be remembered as an all time great.
It wasn't just how Ray was playing in comparison to Avery. It was also how he handled it. People in New England won't ever remember him as a team player again. You can say I'm childish and bitter, but look at Ray.  Ray left the starting lineup and the team got better (at least when he wasn't pouting) and then he left altogether and the team didn't get worse and might be better. He had a long a good career but Avery clearly raises the question....hey wait...maybe we didn't need Ray so bad that whole time. Maybe we could have had any pretty good sg. Maybe like a Kevin Martin or something. Or Manu G. Manu G isn't first ballot, but it looks pretty similar to me.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2013, 12:02:34 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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anyone in denial about this is fraudulent...the players were even using the Avery excuse before he came back to accept losses..he comes back and his energy and defense has sparked the entire team and made players more comfortable with their roles, he directly makes rondo and kg better on defense and has let Lee thrive on a now thriving bench..not a coincidence

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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he comes back and his energy and defense has sparked the entire team and made players more comfortable with their roles, period.
He also cures influenza, and protects against the plague  ;D
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Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2013, 12:07:19 PM »

Offline wahz

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Avery is the finger on the hand that stirs the drink. :P

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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he comes back and his energy and defense has sparked the entire team and made players more comfortable with their roles, period.
He also cures influenza, and protects against the plague  ;D


don't even think he's an all star, just happens to be the perfect fit defensively when combined with our 2 most important players he is capable of making our entire team better without scoring a point

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2013, 12:23:02 PM »

Offline wahz

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I don't understand why some folks want to downplay him. He is probably the best defensive guard in the league and if you think that's not true name someone more disruptive? Can you give him a top 3 nod? Can you see he is very disciplined and not a gambler as in Rondo's obvious weakness? Now, how about in transition, does he have weaknesses there? Finishing at the rim? Jump shooting?

The only things I see that aren't fantastic yet, are his dribbling in traffic and he tries to avoid it. He also doesn't try to create his own shot often. I think those things will come in time.

The all star thing is a bit misleading in a league where the media won't sing the praises of a great defensive guard and there are other obvious stars on his team

It's also true that he was the perfect fit on this team. His coming put everyone back in their respective rolls. Now if we had a great player to play d when KG is out we would nearly be perfect.  ;)

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2013, 12:32:24 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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From 82games:

      Stat                             ON Court  OFF Court   Net
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.          93.2     103.6    -10.3
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.         89.6     105.8    -16.2
Net Points per 100 Possessions   +3.7     -2.2      +5.9

A big difference both defensively (for the positive) and offensive (for the negative).  Net Net though, he is still making a positive contribution but statically it is small.

What I see on the court is a good player but not so good he should make this difference.  His effort is contagious but it is not like they weren't playing good defense before.

All that said, I am not going to be the one to try and argue that he is not the man.  He comes back, we go 6 and 1.  Start the M  -  V  -  P chant.  Add him to the Big 4 group.  Avery is the man of the hour, player of the week (we will see if he is the man of the month or year).

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2013, 12:34:19 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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I'm not denying Bradley's defensive impact. It's played a huge role in this run. I kept telling people the Celtics shouldn't trade Bradley because his defense is among the league's best individually. What's surprised me most is how seamless he's fit back into the starting lineup.

However, other factors have played into it too.
-Pierce was in a slump at the beginning of the season. It almost got to the point where we all thought he looked finished, but now he's over it and has played as good as ever.
-Courtney Lee's 3s weren't falling (like Terry's aren't right now)and he seemed confused in the offense, but now his shots are falling and Lee has fit into his role as the Mini-Posey. I'm 100% confident Terry's stroke will come back too. Like Lee, we need to give the Jet some time.
-Green looks like he's coming out of his shell on both offense and defense. Advanced stats have proven Green is actually a capable 1-on-1 defender like we want him to be and he's being more aggressive on the offensive end. I expect things will get better for him from here.
-Sully looks like his game has adjusted to the NBA and more so. He's bringing more of what the C's need on a consistent basis and has been their most exciting rookie since Rajon Rondo. What's impressed me most is his defensive improvement. He looks much better on D now than at the beginning of the season. Like Green, things are going to get better for Sully too.

Factor in Wilcox coming back and we've got a great squad. And here's the tip of the iceberg people: This is just the beginning. the Celtics went on a streak with Avery returning just two weeks ago. I think this team is going to get a lot better even as time goes on.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2013, 12:43:15 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Saying AB isn't the sole reason is beyond laughable. Wait, so you're saying AB isn't the only one out there playing well? Obviously its a TEAM effort. However AB has SINGLE HANDEDLY lifted the TEAM. We were playing like TRASH before he came back 3 games under 500. He comes back and right away we start posting insane defensive numbers and start winning. None of this happens if AB doesn't come back, period.
wow, how condescending and arrogant can you get?   ::)

It is a TEAM effort.  Bradley is part of that.  How is that an argument?  Are you upset that I didn't say he's the world for this team?  He's not.  He's made a great impact on D.  His return has allowed Doc to move JET/Lee back to the bench where they fit better but that's still JET/Lee playing their own roles.  AB has really cut down on the opposition driving the lane which has helped the bigs not get pulled out of position and play their own defensive assignments.  The bigs still have to make their own plays defensively and within the team D concept so yes, it is a TEAM effort.  also, AB isn't responsible for Green, Lee and now Bass finally finding their offensive game.  again, that's the TEAM getting their act together. 

AB's been terrific since his return and it's really helped the team get it together but he's not the only person who has improved their play recently.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2013, 12:46:52 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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A +6 net rating isn't small. KG is a +7.

Though simple on/off court is a crude measure. Bradley also plays the vast majority of his minutes with Rondo/Pierce/Garnett/Bass. So teammate effects come into play rather quickly, especially with only a 162 minute sample size.

Anyways your 82games.com numbers are off what I pull though the net points is similar. (probably updated with last nights game which would swing things a lot.)

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 12:46:57 PM »

Offline eja117

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he comes back and his energy and defense has sparked the entire team and made players more comfortable with their roles, period.
He also cures influenza, and protects against the plague  ;D
If I had to have a player stand in front of my house to defend against the plague during an outbreak I would totally want that defender to be Avery. 

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2013, 12:47:29 PM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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I tell you one other thing Bradley did. He exposed Ray Allen and single handedly ended the legend of Ray. Ray met Avery and immediately went from first ballot HOFer to third ballot. Went from one of the best ever to one of the guys who was very good.  And he better hope Miami wins another ring this year because if they don't he goes from a reason you win rings to a reason you lose them.

I don't fully agree with this but Bradley did make it apparent how much Ray had lost on defense, how much effort our offense had to expend to keep Ray involved, and how expendable he was to the current team. 

None of that takes away from how good Ray was for us for most of the prior 4 years, though.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2013, 12:48:24 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I tell you one other thing Bradley did. He exposed Ray Allen and single handedly ended the legend of Ray. Ray met Avery and immediately went from first ballot HOFer to third ballot. Went from one of the best ever to one of the guys who was very good.  And he better hope Miami wins another ring this year because if they don't he goes from a reason you win rings to a reason you lose them.

I don't fully agree with this but Bradley did make it apparent how much Ray had lost on defense, how much effort our offense had to expend to keep Ray involved, and how expendable he was to the current team. 

None of that takes away from how good Ray was for us for most of the prior 4 years, though.
Yup.

Ray Allen took the biggest hit to his role and usage when the Big 3 came together. He'll always get props for working so hard to fit in and delivering so many clutch shots.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I tell you one other thing Bradley did. He exposed Ray Allen and single handedly ended the legend of Ray. Ray met Avery and immediately went from first ballot HOFer to third ballot. Went from one of the best ever to one of the guys who was very good.  And he better hope Miami wins another ring this year because if they don't he goes from a reason you win rings to a reason you lose them.

I think this is a pretty absurd claim. It just sounds like you are being childishly bitter over Ray leaving. Nothing about Avery Bradley has tarnished Ray's career, or his status as a first ballot Hall of Famer. And Ray was far from being the reason we didn't win rings; even when Bradley replaced him as a starter, he was one of our 5 best players. His defensive woes were overstated (his defensive efficiency metrics were all above average for a shooting guard, actually), and his offense was (and remains) brilliant.

There are a lot of reasons why Ray lost his starting job here and left the team. And I can understand that you don't root for him anymore. But to actually straight-faced claim that this somehow damages his legacy is beyond hyperbolic. Ray Allen will still be remembered as an all time great.
It wasn't just how Ray was playing in comparison to Avery. It was also how he handled it. People in New England won't ever remember him as a team player again. You can say I'm childish and bitter, but look at Ray.  Ray left the starting lineup and the team got better (at least when he wasn't pouting) and then he left altogether and the team didn't get worse and might be better. He had a long a good career but Avery clearly raises the question....hey wait...maybe we didn't need Ray so bad that whole time. Maybe we could have had any pretty good sg. Maybe like a Kevin Martin or something. Or Manu G. Manu G isn't first ballot, but it looks pretty similar to me.

There is just a bit of revisionist history here.

The turnaround last year started _before_ Avery replaced Ray with the starters.

The turnaround started after we got blown out by OKC on Feb 22, right before the AS break.   From that point, the team ripped off 5 straight wins on the way to a 10-5 stretch WITH RAY IN THE STARTING LINEUP.   Finally, Ray's injury forced him to the sideline and they inserted AB into the starting lineup on March 25.  They finished out 14-5 from that point.

AB is a great young player.  But he did nothing that tarnished Ray's 'legend'.  Ray's bone-spurs tarnished a lot of short-term memory fan's impressions last spring.  That is all.  He'll still be a first-ballot HoFer.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: Ya can't say it's not because of Bradley
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2013, 01:18:38 PM »

Offline celtics2

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If it's about him being the only reason, I'd say no. He's a part of it, though. Sullinger and Lee's improving performance, also, Green's better shooting has helped.
Now, we are waiting for Jet's contribution and the team should be all right moving forward.

Thank God it's not just because of him. We are already unable to handle the time when KG comes off. If Lee wasn't as good as he has been in this stretch, we wouldn't be winning game after game right now.

hey ya can lead em to the water, but can't make em drink it! Stats are stats until they say otherwise they are still stats. The guy's a winner. The Team was in a coma, slumber, dormant, paralyzed, before he appeared. Danny had more deals going than Monty Hall. Now can he turn that water into wine.

 

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