Poll

What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?

Trading a player ( K.Perkins, M,Brooks, G.Davis, etc.)
8 (11.1%)
Not trading a player ( R.Allen, etc.)
18 (25%)
Signing a player ( J.Green, J.O'Neal, etc.)
4 (5.6%)
Not signing a player ( K.Perkins, T.Allen, J.Posey, E.House,M.Daniels, etc.)
17 (23.6%)
Drafting a player ( J.R.Giddens, G.Pruitt, J.Johnson, etc.)
9 (12.5%)
Not drafting a player (M.Gasol, Pekovic, Chalmers, D.Jordan, Asik, Dragic, Parsons)
16 (22.2%)

Total Members Voted: 69

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Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 10:45:26 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I think you guys making the Giddens/Jordan case are on point, but everyone is going to miss on most diamonds in the rough and we've had a nice success rate overall. We could equally well fault Ainge for not identifying Jeremy Lin back when he was an unknown everywhere except for Boston, for example.

The difference between Jordan and Lin is that Jordan's size, athleticism, and upside was pretty clear to everyone at the time.  The questions were about his basketball IQ and work ethic.  With Lin, there were a lot more unknowns.

I'd still point out most were moaning about CDR, and not enthusiastic about big man project.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 10:45:55 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think you guys making the Giddens/Jordan case are on point, but everyone is going to miss on most diamonds in the rough and we've had a nice success rate overall. We could equally well fault Ainge for not identifying Jeremy Lin back when he was an unknown everywhere except for Boston, for example.

The difference between Jordan and Lin is that Jordan's size, athleticism, and upside was pretty clear to everyone at the time.  The questions were about his basketball IQ and work ethic.  With Lin, there were a lot more unknowns.
Plus would the C's have played him enough for him to develop?

I mean Jordan took a good 4 years of pretty heavy minutes before he reached even his current level of defensive/team play. And they had to pay him before he even could be trusted in to play in the fourth quarter of tight games.

Tough to say, though clearly it'd be nice to have his length and athleticism.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 10:46:30 AM »

Offline Chris

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I hate looking back at this stuff, because I think there are so many variables that it is hard to see how things would have really worked out.  But, I have to go with not drafting certain players (that many other teams whiffed on as well). 

To me, that is the only really straightforward mistake.

Just to break down some of the others:

I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

And so on and so forth.

But, while I can say that I understood passing on D'Andre Jordan at the time.  There is no way to argue against that being a big mistake in hindsight. 

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 10:53:01 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I think you guys making the Giddens/Jordan case are on point, but everyone is going to miss on most diamonds in the rough and we've had a nice success rate overall. We could equally well fault Ainge for not identifying Jeremy Lin back when he was an unknown everywhere except for Boston, for example.

The difference between Jordan and Lin is that Jordan's size, athleticism, and upside was pretty clear to everyone at the time.  The questions were about his basketball IQ and work ethic.  With Lin, there were a lot more unknowns.

I'd still point out most were moaning about CDR, and not enthusiastic about big man project.

  I agree. I remember more calls to draft CDR than anyone else.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »

Offline Chris

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I think you guys making the Giddens/Jordan case are on point, but everyone is going to miss on most diamonds in the rough and we've had a nice success rate overall. We could equally well fault Ainge for not identifying Jeremy Lin back when he was an unknown everywhere except for Boston, for example.

The difference between Jordan and Lin is that Jordan's size, athleticism, and upside was pretty clear to everyone at the time.  The questions were about his basketball IQ and work ethic.  With Lin, there were a lot more unknowns.

I'd still point out most were moaning about CDR, and not enthusiastic about big man project.

  I agree. I remember more calls to draft CDR than anyone else.

Absolutely true.  We were all wrong on it.  Doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake in hindsight though.

But GMs make mistakes.  I just am not sure why we would be focusing on the mistakes, when Danny has done such a tremendous job overall.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 11:14:50 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I think Tony Allen.

He wasn't a somewhat unknown draft player. He was in our system for years and truly showed his worth in the playoffs. He still didn't manage to get much attention and could have been had for very cheap. Even if he got.injured or didn't live up to expectations it was still a pretty low risk high reward signing.

Plus with Lebron and some other wing players in their prime and an aging Pierce it seemed like a no brainer.

I mean we were paying Jo, Sheed and Terry twice the money. I still don't really get it. We basically tried to sign and trade for Quis for the same numbers and he had same injury history. I don't know

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2013, 11:57:03 AM »

Offline bdm860

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It’s definitely easier to say:  “He should have drafted Player X over Y” because we know who Danny took and exactly who was still available.

So I’m going to take the easy answer (even though I don’t blame him, talent evaluation is tough, for every Deandre Jordan we can probably show a dozen late first round/2nd round 7-foot busts).

But everything else, it’s really tough to know the alternatives to what Danny actually did.

Not trading Ray for Mayo is tough, because I don’t think any of us are quite sure what happened there, who pulled out, etc.  Also, who knows, we trade for Mayo but then he leaves as a FA at the end of the year anyway (because he doesn’t want to come off the bench behind Bradley), so we still end up with nothing, then everybody would be saying we should have kept Ray, we drove him to sign with the Heat!

And everybody always says Doc called Ray and told him he was traded, but according to Ray Allen’s version, that’s not what happened and he was never explicitly told he was traded.  Although I know there are other credible versions out there too, it's still tough to know what really happened.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table
Quote
The team was in San Francisco on their West Coast swing when Allen got a call from Ainge at around 12:15 p.m., the afternoon of the trade deadline.

"Danny told me he had a deal on the table for me to go to Memphis for O.J. Mayo and he asked me what I thought," Allen said. "I told him I didn't like it. I told him I didn't want to leave Boston. He said, 'I hope you understand my position.' I said, 'I know you have to build this team for the future, but I'm not happy about it.'"

Allen called his family and instructed them to pack their things. Instead, 45 minutes later Ainge called back to say the deal was off.

And for people who say he didn’t sign/acquire a backup, well I always wonder who we should he have signed/traded for?  And who would we have traded to make it happen?  A better 2008 off season, and I the C’s still don't win it all in 2009 (because I assume KG still gets injured).  No bench player is going to make us overcome that.  In any trade we probably would have sent out our 2010 (Bradley) or 2012 (Sullinger or Melo) draft pick, or maybe we get lucky and trade the 2011 pick (JJJ), but then do we get Courtney Lee…

A big part of the problem in 2008 though was he waited too long to settle the Posey situation, the other realistic signable options were already off the table.  Who else could we have gotten? Matt Barnes maybe? Sasha Vujacic? Ricky Davis? Pietrus was available at the start but already gone, same with James Jones, that’s about it.  Though I remember hearing the C’s offered the full mid level to Corey Maggette, that was always a pipe dream.

(I based who was available off of this, though no idea if accurate/complete)
http://nbaweblog.com/suns/archive/2008/07/02/2008-nba-free-agents-signings-trades-amp-player-movement-updated-regularly.aspx

We should have re-signed Tony Allen, easy to say now, but I always thought TA would still be the same knucklehead we had here should the C’s have kept him.  Going to Memphis helped him break out.  Staying with the C’s I doubt that happens, doubt he gets the chance to be All-Defense here.  Just like I'm sure there's fans in Golden State saying we should have kept Jeremy Lin.  But had they kept him, he'd probably still be riding their bench and nobody would have ever heard of him.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:02:39 PM by bdm860 »

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Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2013, 12:53:47 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

I'd tie these all together and say that they all come out of the same mindset.  Ainge wasn't going to give Posey a guaranteed fourth year.  Ainge wasn't going to give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year.  And Ainge knew he wasn't going to give Perkins the guaranteed fourth year that Perk was going to get in free agency.

Is the basic strategy of avoiding giving out long, fully guaranteed contracts, especially to non-stars who are aging or have injury risks a bad one?
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Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 01:01:17 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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The 2008 off-season in general.  Drafting Giddens, bringing in POB, not finding an adequate replacement for Posey, etc.

Not re-signing Tony was a mistake, especially since our lack of a backup SF caused us to tank our championship hopes by trading Perk.
Just imagine Bradley & Tony on the court at once...

Makes me weep.
I would certainly make you weep on offense too.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 01:01:57 PM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

I'd tie these all together and say that they all come out of the same mindset.  Ainge wasn't going to give Posey a guaranteed fourth year.  Ainge wasn't going to give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year.  And Ainge knew he wasn't going to give Perkins the guaranteed fourth year that Perk was going to get in free agency.

Is the basic strategy of avoiding giving out long, fully guaranteed contracts, especially to non-stars who are aging or have injury risks a bad one?

It's not a bad strategy but not every situation is created equal.  Posey was already 31 and starting to break down - it was a bad risk to guarantee him a 4th year at MLE money, and Danny was vindicated for passing on that, I'd say.  Perk was only 27 but coming off a major injury and it looked like we'd need to give him $8-10 mill per to keep him, which was a high price even when healthy.  I'd say that, the trade aside, not resigning him was the right move, but it wasn't as clear-cut as Posey.

But TA was still just 28 and only got about $3.1 mill per for 3 years.  That's peanuts for a quality reserve with his skillset, and a much safer gamble than Perk or Posey - fewer $ and years.  I think Danny dropped the ball on that one.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 01:04:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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The way the Allen saga played out I still think Danny thought Allen would do what Posey did and give the C's every chance to match.

Tony didn't, he got his best offer from Memphis and took it along with eventually more minutes than I thought he'd get. (I assumed they'd keep force feeding Mayo)

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 01:09:56 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

I'd tie these all together and say that they all come out of the same mindset.  Ainge wasn't going to give Posey a guaranteed fourth year.  Ainge wasn't going to give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year.  And Ainge knew he wasn't going to give Perkins the guaranteed fourth year that Perk was going to get in free agency.

Is the basic strategy of avoiding giving out long, fully guaranteed contracts, especially to non-stars who are aging or have injury risks a bad one?

It's not a bad strategy but not every situation is created equal.  Posey was already 31 and starting to break down - it was a bad risk to guarantee him a 4th year at MLE money, and Danny was vindicated for passing on that, I'd say.  Perk was only 27 but coming off a major injury and it looked like we'd need to give him $8-10 mill per to keep him, which was a high price even when healthy.  I'd say that, the trade aside, not resigning him was the right move, but it wasn't as clear-cut as Posey.

But TA was still just 28 and only got about $3.1 mill per for 3 years.  That's peanuts for a quality reserve with his skillset, and a much safer gamble than Perk or Posey - fewer $ and years.  I think Danny dropped the ball on that one.

Thank you.

For people saying he wouldn't offer 3rd year because of cap flexibility etc.....it was 3 mil!!
What it came down to is Danny low balling TA and never engaged in serious talks with him.

And don't say TA wanted to start either. He wanted more money/respect. Im sure he wasn't exactly thrilled to go from a major player in the run to the finals to a terrible (at the time) Memphis team. Not to mention he still salivates when talking about the C's

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 01:22:22 PM »

Offline moiso

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I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

I'd tie these all together and say that they all come out of the same mindset.  Ainge wasn't going to give Posey a guaranteed fourth year.  Ainge wasn't going to give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year.  And Ainge knew he wasn't going to give Perkins the guaranteed fourth year that Perk was going to get in free agency.

Is the basic strategy of avoiding giving out long, fully guaranteed contracts, especially to non-stars who are aging or have injury risks a bad one?

It's not a bad strategy but not every situation is created equal.  Posey was already 31 and starting to break down - it was a bad risk to guarantee him a 4th year at MLE money, and Danny was vindicated for passing on that, I'd say.  Perk was only 27 but coming off a major injury and it looked like we'd need to give him $8-10 mill per to keep him, which was a high price even when healthy.  I'd say that, the trade aside, not resigning him was the right move, but it wasn't as clear-cut as Posey.

But TA was still just 28 and only got about $3.1 mill per for 3 years.  That's peanuts for a quality reserve with his skillset, and a much safer gamble than Perk or Posey - fewer $ and years.  I think Danny dropped the ball on that one.

Thank you.

For people saying he wouldn't offer 3rd year because of cap flexibility etc.....it was 3 mil!!
What it came down to is Danny low balling TA and never engaged in serious talks with him.

And don't say TA wanted to start either. He wanted more money/respect. Im sure he wasn't exactly thrilled to go from a major player in the run to the finals to a terrible (at the time) Memphis team. Not to mention he still salivates when talking about the C's
Starting can be a form of respect.  My least favorite moves were letting TA go, and although I tried to be optomistic I really disliked Rasheed and JO.  They turned out to be pretty bad as well (Although some always argue on Rasheed's behalf).

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 01:36:10 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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I can't say not signing Posey was a mistake, since KG got hurt in 2009, and after that Posey really did fall off a cliff.

I can't say not signing Allen was a mistake, because I still am not sure he would have been anywhere near as good in Boston as he was in Memphis.  His defense is great, but his lack of discipline would have been a much bigger issue in the C's system than in Memphis. 

Perk trade...well, to me the juries still out.  I think the timing of the trade sucked, but I don't feel like Perk would have made the difference for that team to win a championship, and he likely would have walked after the season anyways.

I'd tie these all together and say that they all come out of the same mindset.  Ainge wasn't going to give Posey a guaranteed fourth year.  Ainge wasn't going to give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year.  And Ainge knew he wasn't going to give Perkins the guaranteed fourth year that Perk was going to get in free agency.

Is the basic strategy of avoiding giving out long, fully guaranteed contracts, especially to non-stars who are aging or have injury risks a bad one?

It's not a bad strategy but not every situation is created equal.  Posey was already 31 and starting to break down - it was a bad risk to guarantee him a 4th year at MLE money, and Danny was vindicated for passing on that, I'd say.  Perk was only 27 but coming off a major injury and it looked like we'd need to give him $8-10 mill per to keep him, which was a high price even when healthy.  I'd say that, the trade aside, not resigning him was the right move, but it wasn't as clear-cut as Posey.

But TA was still just 28 and only got about $3.1 mill per for 3 years.  That's peanuts for a quality reserve with his skillset, and a much safer gamble than Perk or Posey - fewer $ and years.  I think Danny dropped the ball on that one.

Thank you.

For people saying he wouldn't offer 3rd year because of cap flexibility etc.....it was 3 mil!!
What it came down to is Danny low balling TA and never engaged in serious talks with him.

And don't say TA wanted to start either. He wanted more money/respect. Im sure he wasn't exactly thrilled to go from a major player in the run to the finals to a terrible (at the time) Memphis team. Not to mention he still salivates when talking about the C's
Starting can be a form of respect.  My least favorite moves were letting TA go, and although I tried to be optomistic I really disliked Rasheed and JO.  They turned out to be pretty bad as well (Although some always argue on Rasheed's behalf).

Yeah Sheed wasn't fantastic but he really did make up for a lot of it in the playoffs. At the time it seemed like it was either Sheed or McDyess and in hindsight I still take Sheed.

JO was just brutal and injured all the time. At least Sheed played in every game just about. I feel like we went after JO too quickly and didn't realize we could have had Shaq until after the fact. Would be curious who else we could have had.

Re: What you consider is the biggest mistake D.Ainge made since 2007 ?
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 01:43:07 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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Not selecting Rudy Gay and not taking a flyer on Marc Gasol. Any 7 ft tall brother of a current 7 ft tall all star who is available to anyone in the mid to late second round is worth a flyer. Gimme a break. Gabe Pruitt?

The Rudy Gay pick was complicated by the need to get rid of LaFrentz, but Danny should have found a way. Telfair was useless.

 

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